That's fantastic news Lee! Can't wait! GG is going to be a beast and a half a year from now.

Don't worry TomJScott we have not built it yet, and the community will be involved in the design. When you say "A fullscreen editor would be unbelievably horrible.", if you think about it every editor is fullscreen, and then you add the menus, toolbars, panels, buttons, e.t.c. to make up the UI. With the unified editor view, we could still have docking windows, menus, e.t.c. but it would be rendered as a single visual experience rather than a 3D window 'inserted' into a Windows IDE app. Aside from the 'game window' and 'editor window', what other windows did you imagine we would need to dock/undock? Or is there an existing 'full-screen editor' system somewhere in the world you are thinking of that proved horrible, if so, can you send me a link so I can check out what not to do (for example I remember when GameSpace replaced the four 3D views with one free flight camera system which was a bit of a culture shock).

Don't quote me on it ....But I think Tomj is referring to this style of fixed editor used in 3D Gamemaker.
Apologies if I'm wrong ..

No, every editor is certainly not fullscreen. And even if I maximize an editor it is still a window within screen space and not fullscreen. Fullscreen would be like being inside the game in F9 editing mode with menus and widgets built into the 3D environment. And I'm pretty sure that's what you're advocating. Torque is similar to this concept even though now they at least let you have the main window itself movable and resizable. And, yes, I want a 3D window inserted into an IDE. The Windows environment is advanced and fully featured and very intuitive and easy to use. Adding menus and widgets of your own design inside a 3D environment is going to be just bad. Don't try to re-invent the wheel, especially with a wheel that has been refined over the past 27 or so years by world-wide user feedback and usage. As far as docking/undocking, I think just about every window you have in the engine should be dockable/undockable/movable,resizable. And the editor should remember the way you've arranged it but be able to revert to defaults if desired. Just look at editors such as Unity, Unreal 4, CryEngine, Daz Studio, Photosop, Premiere Pro, and others to see how it can be done.

Does anyone else share the view that we should keep GameGuru as two separate modules, the Windows-style IDE (menu, toolbar, image lists, etc) with the 3D Editor view "inserted" into it as a separate space? Would be good to get feedback before we consider making fundamental changes to the style of the IDE. Admittedly, I'm a little blinkered on the issue and only see the benefits of upgrading the UI, so would appreciate further insights from the community on why we should NOT upgrade the UI and stick with the current Windows, Menus & Toolbar tech. Thanks.

You should probably start an official thread asking this question or some guaranteed means whereby the whole community will see it. Otherwise, just those who are subscribing to this thread are going to see it. And your responses might not be representative of the larger community. This is such a huge change that it should be carefully considered and presented so that everyone can weigh in on it. Speaking just for myself, this seems to be just an off the cuff decision with no consideration for the consequences.

Ok so I looked at the pic again ...The editor looks very cool and makes GG look more expensive and more mature blending in well with todays kind of editors / interface ...Where as GG has a kind of Paintshop Pro 4 look ( which I still love and use daily so I cant complain ) But GG functions well and perhaps I am looking at it cosmetically rather than functionality.

I did point out earlier in the thread that new features may make the interface naturally evolve as in ( add that here ...move that here .. ) which would start to change the look and layout .... Although Not Accidently as someone mentioned

So perhaps just a facelift is required ?

I like the idea of detachable windows, I can drag to other monitors. I like to spread out a bit.

Maybe a setting menu that also includes the default arrangement (all together), and allows you to save different configurations for the user.

Having these panels open to display info or a specific tool allows me to visualize and also gives me a full screen to view the level while editing.

Of coarse I would understand, that the more of these window open the more resources they use.

Totally against full screen, while I like the editor as is, you should be able to add docks, menu, remove them or resize them as you see fit, I would personally love to see a dual screen mode in action, where I can have the editor window on one screen and the docks on another.

Considering my secondary screen is a touch screen means I can simply drag and drop entities with out having to ever move over my mouse, game guru should definitely support dual screen mode, not spanning the editor of the two or even 4 screen, but only the docks moveable to the additional screen.

@LeeBamber, Please... definitely not 3D Gamemaker - we want GG to be a professional editor 3D GM was like a toy.

For me the editor works fine as it is, but an updated UI with integrated\detachable windows for entitles and such is definitely something that would make it more intuitive to use.

We also need ability for exact coordinates of items, not just drag\drop and mouse movement - imo.

I too use dual monitors and am soon moving to a 3 monitor system, detachable menus and tool bars and image lists would effectively give me a full screen editor.. Yes please

Personally I love the layout of the OP: professional, functional, user customisable, modern, and just plain cool eye candy!! You should hire @Landman to create the UI and the GG team can just wire it all up.

OldFalk....

I should also add that while I think the mockup IDE presented in this thread is a step up from the current GG interface, I'm not advocating a copy and paste of this exact IDE for GG. I think the mockup is a step in the right direction but it could stand some improvements and additions. I approve of the general idea of what was presented.

seriously guys, come on, why not sort the engine out and workings before nice looking buttons? just my view

think about the cars pimp my interface when you have a fully working car with engine and all the indicators headlights etc etc.

stop putting him off the main focus please

@TomJScott,

Lee is correct in saying that the majority of editors are full screen, with GUI on top.



As you can see from the image above, it is the editor that was presented in the initial post (with a level from my own game in the background [free flight mode]).



This is the same image without the GUI. The editor will be making the full screen image underneath the GUI, it's just that the rest of the image is either not in view or is hidden by the GUI

The examples you gave all do this in the same manner. Photoshop is a prime example.

On a side note, I love the example given in the first post. It looks very professional, gives more scope for features and it actually seems easier to use.

Um, no. No they aren't. And whatever you were trying to explain after that statement made absolutely no sense at all, including the Photoshop bit. I use photoshop all the time and it is not, by default, a fullscreen editor. It is a windowed interface. If you are suggesting that maximizing a window makes it fullscreen then you are very much mistaken. Although photoshop does have a fullscreen mode, it isn't in that mode by default. And photoshop fullscreen mode isn't the same as what we are talking about here either.

What Lee is actually proposing by "fullscreen" is that the entire interface is overlaid on top of the graphics canvas and that the graphics canvas actually runs in true fullscreen mode. That is, it literally takes over the entire monitor and renders to the entire surface. So, in this scenarios, the IDE would be widgets within the graphics context overlaid as 2D elements. Thanks, but no thanks. That's exactly what we don't need.

@Unfamilia, see attachment for a snapshot of my main monitor running the Unreal 4 editor, which is clearly not fullscreen.

Tom, as a graphic designer, I live in Photoshop every day of my life and Illustrator and After Effects. It is very much a full screen interface with the UI over top of it. Yes, as you say, it can be windowed, but, by default, it is full screen.

Regardless, that is not the issue here. Merely semantics.

From what I have read in your previous post, I get the impression that you think Lee wants to implement something akin to the TAB TAB mode in test game? I doubt that is what Lee is inferring. I believe Lee is aiming more towards what was originally posted by Landman.

I think the best thing we could all do here is find editors that we like to use and that we find easy to use (easy being the key word) and post a screen shot, outlining what we like about it, what could work better etc. That way, the development team can get a better understanding of what the community is after.

Lets leave the above fullscreen argument alone now. It serves no purpose in helping the overall decision.

When all is said and done, I really like the Photoshop interface, granted, I am VERY used to it and find it easy to navigate. I understand others may not, but, I would like to see something similar to the general layout for GG.

I personally would like GG to remain windowed. Its better for my workflow. I don't even use the F9 edit mode.

I multitask and prefer my programs stacked in semi-maximized windows. As I tend to work with Photoshop, Notepad, 3DsMax and GG open at the same time as my resource Folders. It is important that I am able to see my lower task manager and have the ability to minimize, maximize my software and shift them around on my screen. I use two monitors as part of my workflow and a lot of software that jumps into fullscreen doesn't allow me to multitask on the two. I really do not like being forced to using ALT TAB or exiting just to access other tasks.

The only time I want fullscreen for any project is when im reviewing a preview. This could be with a video game test, a movie render, a graphic element... etc. I do not use fullscreen for any other aspect of my workflow. It is very critical to consider how everyone conducts their own workflow when creating an editor for them to use. The safest bet is to always make sure its an actual Windows window and not go entirely graphical and full screen. Keep in mind people with disabilities who operate with software supported by the Windows structure for tab selection. Some are by pointers, voice and other methods. Additionally Windows short-cuts have to remain functional while using the editor. The best UI, is the ones that are most user-friendly to everyone. Not the ones that just look nice visually.

In the attachment is the editor i use most (for making the mods for the Nexus Community for Fallout 4 and New Vegas. its near identical to Skyrim and Fallout 4's editor as well). I use it across my two monitors. The second monitor is a 42Inch screen with a wider aspect ratio. I generally use it for my render previews, final outputs and game testing. My ways about going editing things may seem quite jumbled to others but it allows me to get a lot more done in a shorter time than having to switch from software to software. I need the ability to move my windows around.

The interface is not just about usability but also about marketability.
It is the first impression.
If the interface looks flash and powerful people will assume the software is.

It's also human nature to stick to what is familiar. the more familiar it looks and feels the more likely they are to use it, people who came to this GG via FSPC will have a different perspective from those who didn't.

Most people who use widows want their products to look the same , to have the menu options in the same places, to use the same shortcuts.

A familiar interface also lowers the learning curve.

Most window users would not associate a little rocket with testing a game.

Most window users expect to see a menu of options when they right click.

The more sales the more resources TGC can afford and the faster development can occur .

Please consider the market carefully when making changes which is more important; keeping your existing users happy or expanding your customer base.

But what do I know I bought Beta just because it worked better than VHS, I thought the Amiga was amazing and out last all others. I thought CP/M would kill MS-DOS dead.

Apparently you don't understand what fullscreen is. Here is Photoshop on my desktop, clearly showing it is NOT fullscreen. The desktop area is the fullscreen area and the Photoshop windows are anywhere I want and whatever size I want. Maximizing a window doesn't make it fullscreen.

Who cares what 'fullscreen' is? It is a minor argument to prove a minor point which won't affect the outcome whatsoever. All I really want is to be able to see the darn scene when I make graphic changes in 'Tab' mode all those menu tabs give me a headache and it gets more added every release, fix this now, the rest is fluff.

Balderdash, ballyhoo and broohaha...these are words with a 'b' this time....name that tune.

It's not a minor point. If Lee is proposing a true fullscreen editor then it's a big deal and very unwanted.

Actually it had degenerated into an argument over whether PS runs fullscreen or not, as I said I really don't give a monkeys. If you think fullscreen is a bad idea then that is fine. But you really aren't going to win anyone over in this way arguing with someone over Photoshop isn't interesting around here, you get what you want by being fluent and showing examples of what you would like to see. Hearts and minds ya know?
Besides it isn't up to us Tom, we all get to provide input then Lee will do whatever suits him no matter how hard you push as an individual unless you got the point across to HIM. A gentle nudge works best with him I hear

@Lee I think you should do what you feel is best for the engine. if your way works then that is fine I don't want to vote off something we have not even seen a beta version your idea. I myself never made a game engine or created a gui so I can't you right from wrong with your idea. just as long guru does not in up like unity I hate their interface.

Laughing Out Loud!

Thanks Rolfy for the wise calming words Fear not Tom I am not sticking you with a T3DGM interface Thanks Unfamillia for attempting to get my point across, I kind of sensed the 'fullscreen vs IDE' conversation was a potential exercise in sophistry and decided to get a wider perspective on the issue, which worked out quite well as the thread evolved.

It seems many of you like the idea of docking windows at custom sizes and positions, and also moving whole windows over to second monitors, which is something I did not appreciate before this post. Providing I can ensure that new users don't get bombarded with too many windows, I think fragmenting the IDE into Windows that can be arranged as required sounds like a step in the right direction. Certainly keep those IDE screenshots coming in, as the more inspiration material we have the better, and also shots of IDEs you DON'T want too, so we have things to avoid as well as things to attract. I may have to do a little prototyping with the DX11 implementation to ensure we can render GameGuru resources through multiple windows, and it would also be good if we could find some open source middleware that can produce some nice windows buttons, gadgets, etc to accelerate the implementation of the Windows IDE side of things. I currently use a positively ancient version of BCG for the current interface, and it would be nice to find out what's new in the world of IDE APIs (with a possible eye on cross-platform so we can eventually migrate to Mac and Linux).

Lee
if this is right you may get GG on linux earlier than you expect

http://www.pcworld.com/article/2940470/hey-gamers-directx-11-is-coming-to-linux-thanks-to-codeweavers-and-wine.html

R.

What a lively discussion! Some great points here, and I can't wait to see what the Community and Lee come up with.

On a side note (as has been said before, several times), if you feel the need to argue with any Staff Member here...please do so with the PM system, and not on the open boards. It would be appreciated. As always; I've taken the necessary steps.

Thought that might happen.

Re IDE. If the current tab tab panels could be made to be separate or dockable Windows (like paint.net) that would be great. I use multiple monitors too but think this approach works well either way.

A windowed entity tree locator would be very useful too for larger maps.

Cheers.

It would be nice to regroup some objects into a group like a house with all the inside object put into one group then this group could be copied and pasted to a new location on the map this could save times it may even help in the batching objects that are in the same group

Well now...it appears from Lee's blog https://www.game-guru.com/devblog/ that we can now see most the screen when editing graphics in TAB mode....many,many thanks for this

I look after those who look after the community

Thats nice, I remember when we were requesting this in June, and I gave an example UI design idea:
https://forum.game-guru.com/thread/212225#msg2520043

Glad to see it

We may not be the fastest or biggest yet, but we get there in the end

That's great ! thanks Lee

Indeed Lee! Indeed good sir!

I disagree, as there is a difference between a maximized window and "full screen". As I stated before I need the ability to move my GG window so I can use other apps at the same time. This is what makes the workflow with software such as unity and unreal very handy for those that do multitask. ALT Tabbing is not the way to go as your unable to look at multiple apps simultaneously.

But again I do not use the F9 edit mode in GG and being forced to use a "fullscreen" mode like that might mean I'd have to jump ship as its uncomfortable for me to use. This is the same reason I was not 100% supportive of the construction kit mode that was being developed in "fullscreen". Great tool for everyone, but just doesn't work for me.

My opinions and comments do not reflect the community as a whole, so don't take anything I say as being negative or make a chance just because I said something. I just work in a very different way than most it seems. I may only represent a 5% of people that use apps in this way. I'm ambidextrous and minded. I'm fine with whatever decision TGC makes as I hope for the best in their marketing endeavors. I'll always support the great work being done here and I find myself spending more time working on assets for people than actually making games. So whatever decision comes out of this, is fine.

I did too, as did almost all of the beta testers find the conkit lacking oomph.No idea how they will be reworking it, but I do know, that while grid snapping and snap mode will be included, they definitely be looking, at odd snapping and the likes.

@teabone, I wasn't concerned with fullscreen other than the argument about Photoshop, I was referring to that and not the idea itself. I can see how it would be misread so no worries about that we're good I made this clearer in a following post and maybe you missed that.
As far as not wanting fullscreen I actually agree, I just felt there was no point in the argument, it is better to show what you want and leave it that.

I don't want full screen either, i never use the f9 mode, its far easier and more natural to use the main editor - and i really am fine with the current editor but it just needs more functions...

Changing its appearance is just "OK, sure" but It's certainly not something I would like to see worked on before getting those extra functions

I agree completely. And I also think I must have skimmed to quickly through the thread earlier. Sorry about that.

I really like Landman's concept for the editor UI in the very first post and I hope some aspects of it are considered. Its actually the kinds of things I used to hope for back in the FPSC days.

No worries as I said, we are good, I understand how it could be misread and I think even Tom did that

I reckon we will see a very good portion of what we would like to see being put into GG as it would benefit everyone and the product itself. After all it is user input as we work with it just about every day and anything that improves workflow can only be good for TGC., GG and users as well.

@Lee, came across a cross platform GUI C++ library: www.wxwidgets.org