In Lee's recent blog, this is what was said:

" I challenge anyone to send me a link to a ‘how to’ video which shows the creation of a first or third person game in less than 10 minutes that even comes close to the functionality you can achieve with Game Guru in the same amount of time out of the box (if we had a box)."

Since, he hasn't responded to me there, I'm opening this topic here to see where it leads. I'm interested in taking on this 10 minute challenge, but I would first like to agree on some ground rules for the challenge.

1. We need to define "Out of the Box" first. If Out of the Box includes any freely available content provided through the game engine's asset store then I accept this. I believe if it costs me nothing and is provided through the company's asset store then it should be allowed. You might say that it's not out of the box then, but many engines have a core download and additional downloads for starter asset packages. I still call that out of the box.

2. Is 10 minutes real-time or just edited footage time? Now, I don't mean to say that I'd create a demo that took 2 hours and only show 10 minutes of it, but if I need to pause to think about something, consult my notes, etc. then I would like to edit out those pauses and only show the video where actual work "in-engine" is being done. However, if you want it real-time then I'm fine with that as long as we both adhere to it.

3. I would not be agreeable to entering this challenge if Lee had others helping him while he was making the demo. It would have to be just Lee all by himself.

4. We'd need to agree on a deadline. I think a certain amount of time to plan this would be advisable. I wouldn't want to just open an editor and make something up as I go. So, if we set a deadline of 2 weeks then that would be plenty of time to prep, plan, and then video the how-to session.

So, Lee, are you prepared to follow through on this?

I think what Lee means is to create a quick level like in you do in GameGuru but in third person or first using any other engine but with whats provided in the default installation .... But I think its more a figure of speech than a direct challenge and I did not read it as Lee would be taking part ?

It would Just be like if you were making a game tutorial for GameGuru ... You could easily make a quick FPS level in Game Guru in 10 minutes and video it with the default installation and no doubt when we get third person it will be no different .

Why two weeks deadline though ?
I could load up GameGuru and video creating and fps level right now .... If you needed 2 weeks preparation you would already have lost I would imagine.

would this not take him away from bug fixing and creating new features like lua commands character kit con kit and other things for a few weeks ?

While I haven't read it in it's entire context, it does sound rhetorical to me.

It has an air of truth to it.

in 10 minutes with stock objects and some terrain sculpting you can do a lot.

I do media testing and can set a lot of stuff in 10 minute and sculpt the terrain for a test very quickly allowing me to test a large amount of stuff quick.

Now with the new snapping feature and Free flight mode, it is even faster.

3 mins for a terrain, 7 mins for placing objects. you could see some neat little levels created.

I agree. Currently this is the most important for me.

Currently it is like an axioma, that you can make many things in 10 minutes, playing with GG.
Even so, many pre-made maps comes with new tuto system, and it maigh help.

3com

Sorry, but then he's just saying GG is better by virtue of including more stock content. Might as well just be a comparison of the art assets then and not the engine.



It was a direct challenge and since he made the challenge it would have to be him that provided his 10 minute video.



I didn't mean 2 weeks to prepare. I meant to weeks to deliver. I can't just stop everything I'm doing and throw together a video. I don't even have the ability to record voice while doing a video and I've never done a how-to video before. I'd take a few days just to put the video together with the voice over added after the fact. And I'd want to at least plan what I was going to make first. I've actually done that part already with the assumption I could use free store assets, but it seems you believe Lee wants a provided content challenge instead.

Well, if it's just a content challenge then I'll decline. GG definitely has a lot of stock content out-of-the box. But I hold to the belief that the spirit of his challenge was that GG could do more out-of-the-box than other engines and that would mean what anyone could do with an engine without investing extra money. And that should include anything freely available that the engine is capable of utilizing. But the truth is, once you're done doing that 10 minute video, GG is spent already. There's nothing else it can do after that. What you can do in 10 minutes is the extent of its capabilities.


I would say if this is just a content challenge then GG has already lost...
[Edit] by virtue of admitting that's all it has going for it.

Slight reconsider. I was going to take this challenge using Unity and free store assets, but I originally planned to used FPS Creator X10. The reason being, that I could actually win quite easily and also demonstrate that after more than 2 years of GG development, we still don't have things that we had way back then. It was going to be my way of delivering a wake up call to TGC. I guess I feel like we were completely misled when the Kickstarter for Reloaded came out. I saw the tech video and I knew what X10 was capable of so naturally I imagined getting an X10 with everything else added on top of that. Sadly, still not even close.

I think your reading to much into it .... He challenged anyone to show him creating a 3rd person game with any other software in ten minutes and video it as proof in other words ....via a "Default " installation ( out of the box )



Pretty sure it was meant as a hypothetical scenario ...and even then he didn't ask anyone to make one ..... Just a link to one that currently exists ...A how to video ...on you tube perhaps

Or first person.

And we haven't even seen GG do third person yet so that's quite a bold challenge. Anyway, I suppose he isn't up for the challenge then. But just for the record, here is a quick answer to the challenge:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7QX_DtoPjjs

Done in 9 minutes.

Nice ... I have this ...
But its an add on for Unity ( which I didn't know when I bought it ) .... Great for playing about with though
You would need to do the same thing in Unity out of the box "Without " using Axis Game Factory

Per their website:

"AGF is a standalone product, designed to work in concert with the Free and Pro versions of the Unity 5.0 game engine."

Yes, it can work in concert with Unity, but everything in that video was the stand-alone product without any connection to Unity. So, it qualifies.

Quick under 6 minute video of someone building first person CryEngine area. He was obviously focused on just doing a very specific small area, but it still shows how fast it can be done and with incredibly high quality using features not found in GG.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i--VmOvtrdg

More info on Axis Game Factory from their site:

"AGF is a stand-alone suite of applications that empower users to create game levels and environments for many types of game genres, allowing users to create vast worlds quickly and efficiently. Users can also share their game creations immediately using the “Game Packager” feature, which packages their creations for anyone to play for free."

So, it doesn't require Unity it would seem.

EDIT: Reading elsewhere that it may require Unity to distribute the packaged level. Not too clear on this, but their website doesn't seem to really say it clearly. Anyway, I still think that since it's a stand-alone app that creates the entire level and can test characters running around that it qualifies.

If you check the video, remarks you would have seen speed has been increase X2, so no it's has not been created under 6 minutes.

There is zero terrain editing, other than adding trees and a few object on a flat piece of mesh, which isn't even a terrain, you can't really justify that as prove.If I am not mistaking he didn't even add a single AI ? Considering what can be done in game guru in 10 minutes for the same amount of time in game guru.

I own Axis Game factory, it will still take longer than game guru, as far as am aware, it isn't a standalone engine, it's build from the unity engine, it's also severely limited lacks the user friendly approach of game guru.Fail to see how axis will be able to create other game types out of the box, without having to buy all the additional extra DLC for multi player or sidescroller ect, It already put it at a disadvantage that you have to buy additional DLC's if you want to create an MP game.

If you really feel game guru is touting this 10 minute thing as being optimistic, kindly do a level in your favorite engine like unity or what ever. I will gladly do a video for you of game guru in 10 minutes and compare.There simply isn't another 3D engine out there that will allow such quick level building out there.

I accept. But I warn you that I will focus on every single feature that GG can't do and thus demonstrate that GG lacks basic core features. And I also assert that just because you can throw together something in 10 minutes that has more game art content doesn't make it the winner.

As far as that CryEngine video being x2 speed, so what? So it was 12 minutes then. And I know it didn't show off AI or other things, but it could easily have done so if he was trying to make a 10 minute fully functional level, which he wasn't. I simply couldn't find any videos where someone was deliberately trying to make a quick level in 10 minutes. But from videos I've seen, it could be done.

You said under 6 minutes in the post I corrected you now it's 12 minutes, What is the point of making a video of making a FPS game with every feature GG doesn't have, how is that comparing it to what GG can do in the same amount of time, what exactly will that prove, other than GG guru doesn't have those features. Lee ask to show another engine making a level in 10 minutes, not make a level to show what game guru lacks ? Don't bother with the video then, it's clear you don't have issue with the idea of GG, but rather what it doesn't have.Thanks any ways, really just wanted to point out of you want to post video's make sure it makes for a good argument, I have yet to see one

What does it tell you ? ; )

I agree with that... Its about custom content not premade unless you want to just create another clone creator. I keep seeing added new models all the time. I dont give a flip about your premade content. I purchased Reloaded to make my own game with my own content and not some prefabs that everyone and there sister is going to be using. Your character creator looks interesting as does the buildings creator, but the character creator will be useless unless I can easily bring in my own animated characters or create them with it. Every good engine can do this and so should GG. At this point GG is just a level editor with some default ai characters that require alot of coding to make a decent game. I hope this changes.....

I hope to see easy custom animated characters creation or importing
Lots of premade scripts for quests etc or a quest generator where i can fill in the blanks
Lots more shaders and effects

Thanks,

I'll make a level that has all kinds of things GG has as well. What's the point? Seriously? What's the point of making the challenge then? I'll make a level in 10 minutes that's comparable to GG and it'll also demonstrate a ton of what GG lacks. That IS the point. To show it can be done and then some.


That people are more interested in making comprehensive tutorials on level design and game construction then whipping something up in 10 minutes to prove they have a lot of built-in content.


I'm going to do just that. And if you don't post one then that's fine. I think I can get my point across. Like I said earlier, I could do it with X10 even and beat out GG.

Kindly show me the good engine that allows you to change the character in the same way GG does ? Example both saints row 4 and skyrim makes use of making your own character creator, but really isn't a game creator now is it ?

UDK a creator can be added for the player of a build UDK game, as far as I am aware UDK doesn't have have a character creator for the developer it self.

A lot of coding ? There is no coding required to make a decent game unless you are speaking of scripting with lua ? It is impossible to "code" for gameguru other and scripting, as the source has not been made available.

Each to his own, some can't model and premade content is handy for those people, bit dismissing premade content as if gameguru is the only one with premade content, you clearly haven't been to the unity content store, literally thousands of premade content developers can use and do use.So i don't no what your big issue is with prefabs, and all engines have them, you can't do complex moddeling in an engine other than primitive creation, which perhaps support convex or concave design with boolean operations.

Gameguru doesn't support primitive creation, perhaps in future, but I haven't seen any one complain too much about that, other than my self, users are more than happy to make use of the abundant free and paid content available

Here you go:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4467tO_KHCY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q0cyN7k1zww

EDIT: Although I admit that this is usually not something a game engine comes with. So GG definitely has a great idea there.

I think that one of the things to also consider though, is what is the quality of that finished output? I just cannot simply ignore the lack of anti-aliasing in GG. Those jagged edges just doesn't inspire me to build anything in this engine yet.

That is one, pity it doesn't come with the engine as a default it is free. that is one thing about gameguru has on it, all features come default there is no need to pay for costly addons to get additional features out of the software, if and when the source is released that might change but as the software get more features every thing but content is always default, which I think is very nice.Comparatively TGC has added more content that most, but that is a good thing considering the lack of the primitive creation.They will keeping adding more content as new game types are added to the engine.

There is never a shortage of content both free and paid.

Tom I know you like the idea of gameguru but frustrated with what you can do if it, your objective should be create a level in 10 minutes.That is it, that is what lee asked for, you are leaning more towards showing what gameguru can't do, that really isn't good showmanship in the least as you not being objective what is being asked, as your focus is not where it should be when asked.

If you want to show what gameguru can't do, then so what, I am not really going to be bothered in the slightness on what you use to do it, but rather the time limit and how much of a level you have at the end on that 10 minutes, that is what lee has asked. Because your focus is directly somewhere else it defeats the purpose of the excise, and I don't blame you, you have been frustrated for a long time.

I would offer you an award for patience, but it might take awhile to get there

Which brings back to his point of "every" good engine has it

Oh my I wish I never answered to this thread now ..... its all got a little OTT

Lets turn this around a little to something more positive ...
You guys have seen this right

http://steamcommunity.com/games/266310/announcements/detail/218767367114087033

It is a free download and so are hundreds upon hundreds of other content packages. Just because these things don't come with the default download shouldn't be a strike against the engine. It's just come down to which engine has more default packaged assets and that's certainly not addressing the spirit of the challenge. In essence, Lee is saying you can't do in 10 minutes anything close to GG in another engine, but only as long as you stick to what you get in the original download for the engine. In the real world, people aren't going to have a problem downloaded tons of free content so they can make a game quickly and easily. And by default, you exclude that as a viable option. Well, the real world doesn't care whether or not you can do it out of the box. It cares if you can do it at all. And if you can do it free of cost, which includes Unity and all the free assets, then all the better.


Actually, Unity has more FREE content than all the paid content in GG.


Lee hasn't even responded to this response to his challenge. I asked for some ground rules on the challenge and he never responded as of yet.


You sadly miss the point. It's almost like you're saying I can answer the 10 minute challenge, but don't dare use something that GG can't do because that wouldn't be fair. lol. What's the point of the challenge again? Because the challenge sure seemed like a declaration of "We can do what you can't do." And I say, well we can do what you can't do right back at ya. Fair is fair.

No, I hadn't seen that. It looks very cool indeed. Tell me honestly, how long has Lee been working on just that one little scene in the engine? 10 minutes? Probably not.

Sorry I should of split those 2. I didnt mean every engine has a character creator I meant every good engine has easy import of custom animated characters. Those images look good indeed on the link. And if we can change body parts etc that will be great, but I still want to be able to bring in my own animated models easily. Watch out for news on this next week, but for those who like to dabble there will be a way to create your own characters and flag them as third person control compatible. gives me hope...

Thanks

Listen very closely I am saying , that YOUR focus is not the 10 minutes and what you can do in that 10 minutes, but rather showing what gameguru can't do.Your not going about it objectively, your on a mission to show what features gameguru doesn't have instead on just making a level in 10 minutes irrespective of it using features that gameguru does or doesn't have.

Is that simple enough, do whatever you like in the level, really don't care what you do with it, but don't come on here and tell me your gripe is the another engine can do the same in 10 minutes, when your biggest gripe is the lack of features you want in gameguru....

Your words Do you see the issue I have with you wanting to do the level, it's not about the 10 minutes, about the features gameguru doesn't have.So what is the point of doing the level, if you on a mission just to prove some thing completely irrelevant to the topic, why are you doing it ?

What is the point? I am not saying you shouldn't, I am saying why bother, doing it, if the agenda is to show what gameguru can't do, then just actually just making a level and that is it, your not going to be objective with it any ways, your own words said you going to use every feature gameguru doesn't have, it's no longer about the 10 minutes but more about your gripe with gameguru and the the resulting vendetta.

is that clear enough ?

Well, yes it is. I just did a 10 minute level in Unity using some free assets from the store. Sue me if I broke the rules of engagement that no one actually agreed to. Anyway, it's really hard to do much of anything in 10 minutes, even in GG. In my video I take a terrain approach and build from there, but I could just as easily done one with just lots of props and buildings. Maybe I could have gotten more done. I don't know.

As far as my agenda. Yes, it is to show what GG can't do. Of course it is. That's what the challenge was. Why throw down the gauntlet saying you can't do this if I can't come back and say well you can't do this then? Anyway, there isn't enough time in 10 minutes to throw at GG everything I can do that it can't do. The 10 minute limit is in itself a bit ridiculous. 1 Hour would be a better test to make a side by side comparison. After all, in 10 minutes you do about all you can do in GG and in Unity you haven't even cracked open the box of the infinite possibilities.

I'll post my video shortly.

look it is the result of hard coding the animation, and using the X file format lee is going to look at opening the door other formats.

You do have to understand several things happened and as such things got thrown on their heads or got thrown out completely.

The original idea was to, simple make a version 2 of FPSC classic, but completely from the ground up, so they went to kick starter and that failed, as a result they got a private backer, this most likely afforded them to rethink how to go about it.As a result it was decided to build the engine from the ground up.

It started out in darkbasic, lee quickly found that darkbasic wasn't going to cut it, and as a result has been steadily replacing, darkbasic code with much quicker C++, as a result it opened the door for more features, as well as gameguru, they had been planning to move to a bigger game play type maker for some time, it wasn't an over night thing.

Eventually there were enough backers and funding to consider expanding gameguru, you have really walked into the start of the development of that idea, so it will still be some time before you will see any innovative movements.As far as I am aware, lee has not spend a great amount of time coding an engine in C++ only, it's been darkbasic for the last couple of years, so there is some learning curve for him as well.

For the small development team that they are, they are doing a pretty good job so far.The main issue people have is that it is moving at too slow a pace, but considering all that has happen the last few months, people are getting impatient, but I don't think any one should be dissing software that is still early access or still very much getting major features and updates.

People were warned that it would be some time before you might actual see a version 1. If I could guess we might see some thing like that mid next year.Completely off topic but worth noting what you see now isn't nearly the finished product not even by a mile, if this was a 100 mile race we would be 20 miles in so far.

Great example of what happens when an unstoppable force meets an immovable object.

I wasn't really happy with my 10 minute level so I took a different approach and made a new one. Just rendering out the video now and will post as soon as it's available. Yes, I used free content from the Unity Asset store. If someone says that doesn't count then so be it, but what I'm demonstrating is what anyone can do with a powerful FREE engine like Unity and tapping into the vast storehouse of quality FREE assets on the Unity Asset Store. So, despite whether it is viewed as a proper response to the challenge, the fact remains that it's freely available and takes little knowledge to do. The only requirement is just having some time to learn the basics of Unity just like you would have to do with any engine.

Hello All.

I thought I'd chime in here. First of all; let's lay out what has been "challenged":



That, to me, seems simple enough. Use whatever ships as the main product (ie. the Main Engine, and any assets that ship with it...as the main download), and create a game/level in 10 minutes time. This does not mean you take 2 weeks to plan out on paper, what you're going to make. Create a random terrain, place various buildings around, add some foliage and rocks, add some more items of interest. Then add some characters with which to interact (perhaps setting some waypoints for them to follow) with. Spend a few more minutes tweaking your game/level a bit. Then push the test game button.

It's that simple.

Any media, or add-ons, or "engines" that are based off of an engine that has years in development....isn't allowed. Free or not. Whether something's free or commercial is irrelevant to the final product. Chances are, that those assets and add-ons were created by what's called a "3rd Party". Those awesome folk do not have the general time constraints that the main engine's developers do. They have the luxury of biding their time, developing something without constant critique from the general user-group (unless they choose to reveal something early or post their intentions before-hand). They can also choose to completely abandon their product, or just make some major changes; without anyone coming down on them for it. What I've seen in many of the examples above; were created by the afore-mentioned "3rd Party". Therefore, their product does not fall into the "Out of the Box" category. Anything else is just arguing semantics.

Although I can appreciate someone creating what is obviously a beautiful scene of a campfire with some static objects tossed around it; I don't really think that qualifies as an interactive game or level. The Axis Game Factory is also awesome; hopefully someday a clever developer will take the time to piggy-back off of GameGuru, and create an add-on that users want. I can also appreciate the add-on character creator that was made as well; although (again) that is a "3rd Party" product, and cannot be considered "Out of the Box". What I'm getting at, is that all of the previously mentioned tools and add-ons exist because of years and years of core development of a game engine. We're just starting out here....and yet; you can still make a playable game (with characters, buildings and a very nice terrain) in 10 minutes or less. It all depends on your imagination and determination. Tom; I give you a gold star for trying.

Having said all of that above; I will say one more thing.

Constructive criticism is very much welcome (and encouraged) here. GameGuru would not be what it is (and what it will be) without everyone's input and passion (and patience). Constant badgering, nit-picking, borderline promotion of other products, as well as general breaches of the well-defined (and enforceable) AUP....is not welcome here. If you are at all unsure, as to whether you are coming off as "non-constructive" in your postings; there are many dedicated users here (as well as our very own, wonderful, Support Team) that can help clue you in.

As always; we're here to make your experience a pleasant one. However, if this starts showing any signs of a flame-war; it will be locked down. Have a great day!

Here is my video. yes, I used free assets as add-ons. That may violate the challenge in your eyes, but that's not relevant as far as I'm concerned, This is about what a real person can do with a real product right now with a free engine and free assets. Yes, it's years of work by many 3rd parties, but so what? You or I can take it and use it right now for free and do amazing things. And that's the spirit of the challenge. To restrict it to just the main download of the engine is ridiculous. That restriction seems to be the crux of the whole problem here and why is that? Because GG is content rich and that's where it gets its strength. Not because the engine is robust, which it may be someday, but isn't right now. And if I can get content free, and lots of it, then the point of the challenge was ill-considered to begin with.

I'll just add one more thing at this time. Out of the box features means what I can do out of the box. And I can certainly script out of the box, import custom assets out of the box and freely use any free content out there out of the box. If GG wins by virtue of having more "content" in-the-box then I think TGC is missing the point.

https://youtu.be/sG4PkO6JyWk

It's not entirely free now is it ?
[href=http://unity3d.com/get-unity ]http://unity3d.com/get-unity [/href]you have to pay for support, and have to pay to use their new level 11 asset store ? Great it is free, but you have to pay for every thing else, is there a great addon, well it might require having the pro edition, it's definitely some thing to consider, this is basically a pay to play platform, which ever way you look at it.You can buy 75 copies of gameguru for the price of a single unity pro edition.That says some thing.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_software Wiki agrees, "free software" isn't really free unless you have certain rights.

any ways enjoy your challenge

Again; Tom, you can argue semantics all you want. What you've done is take an entire level that was pre-fabricated, and used it as a starting point. You are arguing just to argue now. As such; this thread has reached its saturation point. Users can draw from it what they will.

Yes, it is completely free. You're confused. Add-ons work in free and pro. Pro is only for big studios that make lots of money. Would that be anyone at all in the GG community? All this trying to nit-pick the concept of free when it is clearly free just means you don't like that it's free and has thousands of free assets and ultimately makes my point even if not by the letter of the challenge.

I think everybody understand the message of Lee, except one person. Until now I followed this thread without giving my 2 cents, but i think nothing good or constructive is coming from it, so maybe it is better to just close it and live happily ever after

I have watched my brother put together an FPS demo in a matter of minutes in Unity.