Product Chat / As requested by Lee

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TattieBoJangle
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Posted: 28th Aug 2014 13:29 Edited at: 28th Aug 2014 13:31
As you requested on your blog lee here is a sample with a crate sitting on a landscape press F11 to see fps i get between 600-700fps that is also with day and night system put in a static sky and its over 1000fps



https://www.dropbox.com/s/o88zukjaa35wwcr/Lee.zip?dl=0









PC SPECS: Windows 8.1 Pro 64-bit, Intel I7 - 4GHz CPU, Asus R9 6GB GPU - 32GB DDR3 MEM
xCept
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Posted: 28th Aug 2014 17:41
Heads up, if you download this in Chrome it will block the file as malicious and you won't be able to open it. The file itself isn't malicious but Google has a strange way of flagging ZIP files. I get about 400 FPS on this with my setup.

PC SPECS: Windows 7 Professional 64-bit, AMD Phenom X6 1100T 3.60 GHz CPU (Passmark: 5934), NVIDIA Geforce GTX-680 2GB GPU (Passmark: 5712), G.SKILL 16GB DDR3 1600 (PC3 12800) RAM
DVader
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Posted: 28th Aug 2014 23:53
Tried the download, but it seems I have to install a version of opengl to run it, which I'm not likely do for a demo of an empty map. I'll take your word for it Looks nice though. Illustrates Reloaded's need for more speed at it's core. I guess with a similar scene in Reloaded (as close as you can get of course, I have no idea how big the map is here) it would manage about 60 or 70 FPS, possibly more with water disabled.
Recent blogs suggest performance will be improved in the next release or possibly the one after. It would be nice to get a serious amount of fps boost just with a terrain displayed, as at present it has slipped considerably from earlier versions (even those were not considered fast enough at the time).
Obviously while in beta, and particularly when adding new features, we can expect performance to dip up and down, but of late it has only been down Let's hope that trend stops soon!



SPECS: Q6600 CPU. Nvidia 660GTX. 8 Gig Memory. Win 7.
tomjscott
User Banned
Posted: 29th Aug 2014 00:03
Quote: "Tried the download, but it seems I have to install a version of opengl to run it,"


I think you mean openal, not gl. I got the same thing. But even when I copied over the openal32.dll, it just crashed and wouldn't run. I'm assuming that's a Leadwerks demo.

To be fair, you should also have a water layer to see what the maxed out FPS would be.

System Specs: OS - Windows 7 Home Premium 64-bit SP1, CPU - AMD Phenom II X4 945, 3.0Ghz, RAM - 8Gb DDR3, GFX Card - 2048MB NVIDIA GeForce GT 640, FPSC-R Version - Beta 1.0071
Jerry Tremble
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Posted: 29th Aug 2014 00:59
Looks mighty purty nonetheless!

MAME Cab PC: i7 4770@3.4Ghz (passmark 9945), 12GB RAM, Win 8.1/64, GeForce GTX645 (passmark 1898); Shiny new laptop: i7 4800MQ@2.7Ghz (passmark 8586), 16GB RAM, Win 8.1/64, GeForce GTX870M (passmark 3598); Old laptop: i5@2.3Ghz, 8GB RAM, Win 7/64, Intel 3000 graphics
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synchromesh
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Posted: 29th Aug 2014 01:39 Edited at: 29th Aug 2014 01:46
I also have Leadwerks and here is my voice

Quote: "To be fair, you should also have a water layer to see what the maxed out FPS would be."


Leadwerks cannot do water at the moment as default....Its not present in the editor so that alone helps with its speed.

Its runs in window mode as default ..there is no auto full screen option ...You can edit the config like this..

Quote: "will work with all the resolutions that are supported by your monitor/video card.

self.window = Window:Create("",0,0,1024,768,Window.FullScreen) works fine if you have an HD monitor."


However that's when I found things on an indoor level I was playing with started to slow down not so much fps but felt glitchy and for me has a plastic feel if that

makes any sense?

The 3d view seems a but like you have had a few to me ...slightly out of perspective ... which I found started to make me a bit Nausea after a while...

The demo does show a faster speed ......but it doesn't show all the extra features that reloaded has which for me makes Reloaded far better..



Leadwerks lighting and shading is excellent though in interior mapping.. As a plus for Leadwerks
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TattieBoJangle
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Posted: 29th Aug 2014 12:28
I agree leadwerks is harder but it does offer all the tools you need and they will soon be adding infinite terrain, but any who it was requested by lee so he can have a look at visuals and fps and by the looks of his blog he has improved the looks of reloaded 100% so if performance follows then great.

@tomjscott with a water plane added i get 580fps





PC SPECS: Windows 8.1 Pro 64-bit, Intel I7 - 4GHz CPU, Asus R9 6GB GPU - 32GB DDR3 MEM
synchromesh
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Posted: 29th Aug 2014 13:23
Quote: "it was requested by lee so he can have a look at visuals and fps and by the looks of his blog he has improved the looks of reloaded 100% so if performance follows then great."


Hell ye . ..Anything that will help reloaded look and run better works for me
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Uman
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Posted: 29th Aug 2014 14:50 Edited at: 29th Aug 2014 15:03
The battle for maintaining performance and fps in indie engines is one which has never been an easy one in any indie engine. Today the same applies.



Reloaded is an indie engine aimed at indie game makers. The nature of this has always been and still is that would be game makers using it will rely heavily on the the core engine to provide a quality core and additionally and importantly also - will rely on the engine to provide internally by design abilities to optimise any content they will throw at it while building levels so as to maintain the performance in their games. Lastly for those that are able to do so they may be able to maximise their own game level designs and content optimisation wherever possible to help matters further.



Point being at the level of the Reloaded engine and importantly the status of the majority end user base level (largely one man/woman game makers) - indeed effectively similarly with any engine no matter what its status .e.g. middleware, top position engine, independent game company inhouse developed game engine, the battle for performance is the same.



Maintaining performance and fps with any engine is very difficult. Always has been and performance will never be enough or too much. The better the engine - the more aspiring the games to be made with it, the bigger levels will be made with it, the more complex the games will become, the more will be thrown at it and it will be required to manage and sustain performance, stability and quality and forever better games.



In this instance Reloaded has to find an adequate level for what both TGC and users aspire to in this modern game making era and into the future. In the case of indie engines ($100) and largely one man /woman game makers it has never been done and is and always was something of a challenge from the beginning of time to be fair since the date TGC was born.



No engine I am aware of to date including any bar none can meet with what indie developers by and large need, given that in the main their aspirations are beyond what the level of engine and resources they have and are able to call upon in developing their games.



Indie Developers want Pro AAA game of the day results and always have. Aspirations are always high and sometimes unrealistic one could say.



Having said that Reloaded could be the first engine that breaks the mold perhaps. i.e. allows indie game makers with limited skills and resources to easily and quickly (relatively speaking) develop a high quality game from all aspects of thinking given some effort on their part. By and large a click and play engine if you like at least to a large degree. No other engine on the planet can do that as can FPSC "Reloaded" can whatever the difficulties with performance.



Indie Users expect Reloaded to supply all of the necessary things to develop a complete quality, complex game, easily or at all and that has never been done before or to date remembering that this is an fps engine in the main and additionally aspires to perhaps be and offer much more.



If you just consider FPS then that alone sets Reloaded apart. Most users and perhaps TGC too at users requests would like Reloaded to be able to make games like high quality advanced and complex Modern Titles : The Elder Scrolls, COD, GTA, Battlefiled or whatever your bag, which is quite some aspiration!



When it comes to indie engine comparisons (or any) keeping it simple, games made by indies and their fps performance is going to be under pressure when being used by indie developers. Always has been and always will be. in an empty level fps no matter what it is will quickly fall away when adding content. The highs don't matter as much as the lows and maintaining 30fps constantly is a challenge. We don't need 60+fps - 30fps will do as a minimum maintained during gameplay but achieving that is no easy task.



In the case of Reloaded comparisons though it wont help this product directly, what you need to look at is not empty levels but completed game levels as Reloaded users aspire to for their games. No point at all looking at empty level or a level with just terrain and such like in it for any kind of guidance as that can never show you what any engine is capable of - only fully completed real game levels can do that. As a game maker you Users want a Reloaded game level to be able to be full of all things, Terrain, Water, a City and importantly of course a lot of AI and game mechanics and AI behaviours.



By and large a lot of users want to fill a Reloaded game level with 100s or thousands of entities including endless numbers of enemies apart from anything else and Maintain quality and performance to the very highest standards. A single Reloaded level is large and there are calls for it to be larger still. Filling that with content and action from end to end will take some doing, leave alone maintaining the quality and performance. Make no mistake its a tall order and always has been for indie game makers.



If you want to compare look for another engine a single indie developer working alone with can make a game as you aspire to which is an FPS Shooter and look for a completed game made with it by one person, full of the complex and advanced features aspired to at Pro AAA title quality whilst made in a short space of time and to the highest of qualities and that can maintain performance at a minimum of 30fps throughout gameplay. That wont be easy to find. Aspirations to that for all Reloaded users as expected by many is a admirable one but not easy to achieve to say the least.



To be fair using the current technologies which its difficult to change from now and redevelop the engine from scratch, it was never going to be easy. Reloaded development is slow because TGC are listening to users requests and trying to accommodate them, add actual real time development problems and issues along the line impacting on quality and performance and its - two steps forward and three back. The last few releases have no been helpful in some areas. Even a new engine using 64bit and so on it would not be easy or a speedy end result product and the indie users would still have some things to contend with and continued further aspirations for something better though true to say it may help in some ways no doubt. e.g. memory issues.



As is its a long job and set to continue in that vein. No simple or magic solution. Develop, add, change, go back over everything, update things, change direction and so on all as real life/time development issues and impossible to see impacts crop up dictate or force rethinking or practical development. Notwithstanding TGC throwing open development direction and to some extent capabilty and feature integration and design to the community which permanently restricts forward development which we cant have both ways. If the community and end user base were not to be consulted at all which might have been the case Reloaded may be well further along the line without doubt but you would not be happy with it even more so than now perhaps.



Given the way things are inevitably it will be a long haul make no mistake and the results depend on where along the road you access from. The end is potentially never as nothing stands still and the aspirations and goal posts will continue to constantly move forward. Whatever, its good the way it is as indie developers are consulted but much patience is required and unfortunately we are not good at that very often as is the case many having waited a long time for the ideal indie engine to become a reality.



Indie game makers often have a dream to reach a goal by the nature of what they are trying to do and not getting there is hard to bear. Hang in there I am afraid is all we can do and lend support in whatever way we can hopefully to make things better at the end of the day for all.



LeeBamber
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Posted: 2nd Sep 2014 00:14 Edited at: 2nd Sep 2014 00:14
Can you send me a version of this demo which will run on my NVIDIA GeForce 9600 GT? The executable provided can only run on OpenGL 4 and newer, which means it alienates quite a lot of older cards (including mine). As you may recall, I had a lot of pressure from the community a year ago to support the lower-end cards and widen the compatibility list for the product. If you can send me an executable that runs with my graphics card, I can do a side by side comparison and see where we can close the FPS gap. Cheers.

PC SPECS: Windows 7 Ultimate 64-bit, Intel Core i7 920 (PASSMARK:5008), NVIDIA Geforce 9600 GT GPU (PASSMARK:752) , 6GB RAM

synchromesh
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Posted: 2nd Sep 2014 00:37 Edited at: 2nd Sep 2014 00:38
Quote: "I can do a side by side comparison and see where we can close the FPS gap"




System Requirements

Windows Vista, 7, or 8, with a DirectX 11 / OpenGL 4 compatible graphics card. Please install the latest drivers for Nvidia, AMD, or Intel graphics hardware.



That's not possible Lee....But its one up for Reloaded from a certain point of view ....
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TattieBoJangle
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Posted: 2nd Sep 2014 02:50 Edited at: 2nd Sep 2014 02:57
@Lee

Well i suppose with a card that was released way back in 2007-08 and is no longer supported that has to be expected all i can say is to go forward you must get with the times and believe it of not as you build software on old hardware its not guara
LeeBamber
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Posted: 23rd Sep 2014 21:19
Early in the development the community agreed a target of PassMark scores of around 400, which pretty much includes cards from 10 years ago and also most low-end integrated chips too. If this is no longer the case, and the community agrees, I could set a higher minimum requirement for the product, but I dare say there are a few who would disagree. Rock and Hard Place I'll crack on with light mapping and other tricks and maybe we can get the best of both worlds!

PC SPECS: Windows 7 Ultimate 64-bit, Intel Core i7 920 (PASSMARK:5008), NVIDIA Geforce 9600 GT GPU (PASSMARK:752) , 6GB RAM

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