As far as I'm aware this isn't implemented. What I'd really like to see is an entity lock, I keep spending ages adjusting how I want an entity, and then making a mistake in terrain adjustment, and the entity moves up with the terrain. Or I click on my entity and it jumps up from its position to on top of the terrain. This is infuriating.

Can we please have a keypress to lock the entity position and rotation totally until that same key is pressed again? Some sort of super static mode.

Earlier I placed 50 fence entities only to find the right hand fence post is above the ground. It's impossible to raise a tiny bit of the ground under the right hang post without raising the fence section to the right of it up, thus making it's right hand post off the ground.

If I'm being thick and haven't noticed this, someone let me know, but if it's not there, please add it!

could try the "auto flatten" approach? (i think you press U when holding the entity)
not really tested this myself as i dont do much level building but i think it should help

Yeah, but that puts down the terrain all around the entity, suppose I want a rock sticking out the hill, I place it and then move it down with Fn + Down, but if I adjust the terrain again, the entity jumps back on top of it again and I have to reposition.

Totally agree with this. I have had the same issues and it is indeed upsetting. I've seen so much detail work ruined by this problem. And without an undo function, it makes it even worse.

It makes sense to add an undo button before fixing each instance where we are common to make mistakes. Then little by little we can improve the procedure. UNDO BUTTON!!!!

I agree, however I see some of the issues with regard to implementing an undo button. The only really annoying thing I've had to undo is entities moving due to terrain. Once I've designed a scene area I'm usually done so locking it would be really helpful.

Though I agree an undo button would help, especially when a small entity flattens a vast area of terrain with auto flatten, which I've forgotten to turn off (I wish that was always off by default).

Regards,
S

I could use undo every time I accidentally click the wrong entity and it pops out of the perfect place I had put it. Or when I accidentally right click when I have an entity that I don't want destroyed.

Yeah, I'm not arguing about the need or potential for an undo, I just think a lock would be really handy as a feature..

If you locked the entity after you put it in the perfect place you couldn't accidentally move it out of place

Plus I've found I want to place an entity, say a building, and then raise the terrain around it to make it back into a hill. At present this raises the entity as well, if I locked the entity I could alter the terrain around it without having to re-adjust the height of my building after.

I agree that undo would be helpful, but although both features solve some of the same problems, a lock would make it easier workflow, since it removes the need to readjust stuff after. If I want the terrain up, but the building not to move, undo-ing the terrain up isn't going to solve the issue

There are a lot of times where I do wish for one undo step though. Like buildings with default flatten which I don't notice

Totally agree. I definitely need to be able to lock them in place as well.

i could see this being a good thing even more so if linked to a hierarchy system where you could find the right entities and lock or unlock at will. +1 for this

I'm not too fond of hierarchy systems as they take up too much screen real estate..haha

However what would be a very good way of implementing (it in my opinion) is have a select/select zone tool where you and just area like the terrain brush, and when you click it lists all the entities inside ties area, so you can pick ones to lock/unlock, without having to have an in-editor panel all the time.

I think hat could be a neater way to do it. because then it would be easy to work out what's where, especially if it listed their (x,y,z). Otherwise I have 40 barrels in different parts of my level and a massive hierarchy and no idea which barrel I'm looking at...

I get lost looking for a particular entity in the entity library as it is...

In almost every engine that has ever had a hierarchy system there have been options to hide it, show it, or even sometimes undock and move somewhere else. If you don't like it then just don't show it. But it certainly should be in the engine for those of us who really need it. ::raises hand::



You could have a frame select item feature that zooms right into which one it is. You can also have it so that when you click the item to select it, that the hierarchy highlights the one selected. It's pretty basic stuff and typical of most engines.



Hierarchy systems are designed to alleviate your confusion, not escalate it. Especially if you can group items as you want, parent them, put them in defined layers, search for them, etc.

I understand your points and where your coming from, but I would like to make a few points, though I am fully aware that many of them are mainly me.





Fair enough, but personally I have never been a fan of programs where you have to turn half of them off to see a bit of screen to work with. Once you go down the full 'be like everything else' root, you do end up making everything very hard especially for new users, and it doesn't always make it better. I know this does't stand up as much or an argument on its own, but I'd like to point out the great thing about FPSC is its always been easy to make something straight off, without having to read up loads on each lament and how it works. When I first used Classic, I was amazed at how much I could get up and running in a couple of hours. Had there been lots of side panels I'd not known how to use, I'd probably have given up there and then.



To me, I'd need a system that seemed more intuitive, and not daunting. If I have 10000 entities in a scene, no amount of hierarchical grouping and searching will get me what I want quickly.





Again, fair enough, we are both obviously expecting different things from the same product, so it is likely we will never agree completely - from here it seems I'm expecting something more intuitive to people like me at the start, who are starting out on game design. You're looking towards an engine with all the full features of other engines - both perfectly valid visions, but rather conflicting.



Though after arguing with you before about the widget for moving stuff around, scale etc, and then actually using Reloaded for a full week getting a whole level done, you definitely win with that, a widget would be helpful





Still, typical of most engines doesn't make it useful to all users. I can find out where in the list of entities my clicked on is, but none of this has actually explained the real benefit of having a such a list. I can store stuff in groups so I can operate on it all at once, I can then forget to add extra stuff to the correct group and loose it when I mover the group or whatever. I honestly can't think of a single situation where I wouldn't have a better solution (for me at least) to almost everything I could do with a hierarchy. Again my personal opinion.





Glad it works for you, because it doesn't for me, I'm not being argumentative for the sake of it, I honestly find such things really confusing.





I still don't see the immediate benefit to grouping items. You say put them in defined layers, that works for me in Motion 5, but I don't see how layers works in 3D where unlike Classic there are no layers or virtual floors. You shouldn't need to search for things everything should be intuitive.



Now I know we expect different things, but for me I'd find a super elect tool far more useful than a complex UI of groups etc. You'd select an area (Click and drag, or click a shape like the terrain brush). It would show a list of all the entities in that selection. You could select with say checkboxes which in the selection you want to alter. You then can have functionality to lock, move,scale rotate as a group how ever many you like of the selection. Then you can deselect and do something else. It provides you with a means to operate on many objects, without the need to store how things are arranged. Because of the way I work that works for me, its far more dynamic, I don't have to spend ages rearrangeing my groups because I want to move half my entities to the left and half to the right, etc, etc. It's a powerful tool activated by one button.



Thats my opinion. Its very possible theres some use for groups and hierarchies which will always remain above my head. For me a hierarchy has always worked for up to about 100 items, above that working in any software I've used that uses them (mainly Motion 5 its such a mess even with searching it takes ages to find and sort out what you need quickly, without overriding groups, and operating on bits from multiple groups, thus completely devaluating their purpose.



Thats really all I have to say on the topic, I can't justify my argument much further, this is how my opinion will stand. Developers should look for new intuitive options over tried and tested. Else tried and tested never gets there in the first place.



Don't take any of the above personally, its mainly just airing my thoughts - I'm sure you're a great guy and probably far more professional than me in game design



Regards,

S

How is it intuitive to use cryptic key presses and strange, unintuitive functionality that takes reading a manual to understand? A hierarchy is self-explanatory and requires no manual.


Grouping is great because you could lay down a bunch of barrels or something like that and put them together in a named group. Then by just clicking the group name in the hierarchy, you can move them all together. Try laying down 30 barrels stacked 3 high only to realize that you need to move them all 3 feet to the left. How are you going to do that in the current editor? Right, you need to select one at a time and move them over 3 feet and re-stack them all. But then your already perfectly stacked group of barrels must be re-done all over again.



Layers are not something you necessarily need per se, but once you do understand their use then you realize how wonderful they can be. They are useful for when things get much more complex. For example, you can put all your foliage on one layer, all your enemies on another, etc. Then you can hide or show them in the editor with a simple click of a checkbox. It can help you unclutter your scene so you can focus on getting to just the items you need to. It would help a lot at getting to hard to click items or seeing where to place something without other things in the way, etc.[/quote]


Do you mean super select? And why is a highly organized and intuitive UI somehow complex? You seem to think that if you add a hierarchy and layers and group that you are forced to use them and that they would somehow hinder your use of the product. In a world where it had all these features, you would still have everything you currently have. You don't have to use the other features and they wouldn't be there to complicate your life. You could even take the approach of Daz Studio, which ships with a default user interface layout that is suitable for beginners, but can then select 2 or 3 other layouts that have more functionality when you become more familiar with the tool and know how to use them. It's almost like you want to prevent more experienced users from having the tools we need and think that having those tools kills what you are able to do.



Dragging to multi-select many objects is also basic functionality in most tools of this sort as well. It doesn't mean the other ideas we've suggested shouldn't be there. They should all be there.



No worries. I'm one that thinks we can have a discussion on this sort of topic and disagree and not have to be against each other personally. It's healthy to hash these things out. Just don't lose sight of the fact that having these features doesn't mean you can't have what you already have too. Shortcut keys should always be there and if you have multiple layout capability then you can please more people.

sparrowkawk@
tomjscott@
Stand up and take a bow... I'm siiting here clapping my hands..

At each post I'm saying YES ,Yes I want that.. then the other replies and again I'm saying Yes, Yes I want that.
I can't say no to any of it...

Well potentially, it does rather depend on what you can perform with the said hierarchy, if it has loads of operations performed directly on it they it may still need a manual. The system in Motion 5 drives me mad as you have to click and drag elements around if they go slightly to the left or overlap they turn into a totally different thing and if you don't notice you have to undo loads of stuff. I agree though, if organised properly it could be simple.
I think my select method would also be simple since it would only require one toolbar button to enable select mode and after click and draging your selection the self-explanatory menu of "things to do" would appear.


Totally agree, currently nightmare and a half. Again here both our systems would work to do this easier, and we'd each be satisfied with our own

Yes, typo. haha

Because if I use 4000 - 10000+ entities in my map, and I only group the few that need grouping I have a very big list of entities on my screen, which won't help me very much. I'm probably particularly conscious of this as I've been on a 13" laptop for a while at 1360x768, but say I was using the hierarchy system, with that panel and the entity panel, and the toolbars that's a good 5th of the screen gone minimum. The select thing would only show when it use, and because of its nature show a smaller list to begin with. Think groups, but showing only the single group and none others.

Yeah, although I can't see me using it very much I do agree with you there, but anything not used by all users (eg. the entity selector on the left) should be hidden/minimised by default.

Good it just seemed like I've been debating with you a lot, so I didn't want you to think I was going around specifically to argue with you

Thats good

Apologies its taken me a few days to respond to this one, been out of the forums a bit!
Regards,
S

I'll just say that it's obvious that your main reasons for not wanting a hierarchy are personal and have nothing to do with its usefulness or the fact that most people would want it or need it. Your assertion that it should be hidden by default is also just a personal opinion, but if makes you happy then I'll concede that. I don't have a problem clicking a single preference checkbox to say that I want it shown even though you seem to have a problem clicking same checkbox to hide it.

Tend to agree, haha - if it worked well enough I'd come around



Sort of yes, and sort of no. I don't have a problem checking a checkbox to turn it off, provided it remembers your preference when it relaunches (since it does frequently).

It's more I can't imagine Reloaded ever having multiple interfaces for say skill level. If you've not used an engine before, and you've just paid gold, and you download it to your new small screen (12 - 14") ultrabook, and you have all this stuff in your face - as a new user that's concerning, its very hard to know where to start, and its easy to be overwhelmed. Especially (depending on the experience of the user with other software) they don't know what to turn off, what they need, or how to use it. My brother was 12 when he started using FPSC classic as his first software on his first laptop - FPSCR has always been good at getting new users into game design, etc., as well as older people like you and me. That's why it's great software, you can't afford to 'scare' off your youngest userbase though, as a lot of them wouldn't know what to expect.



I've done quite a bit of software design, so I know despite it being annoying, you have to thing of all the users, and all the screen resolutions. Personally I just want a large screen, I do little other than typing on the laptop, but lots of people don't have as many options. That's why I think extras which more advanced users will use should be mainly hidden by default (though clear they are there, toolbar button etc.) because I'm not thinking solely from my perspective I'm thinking from the perspective of new users and laptop users.



That's my justification

lol. I don't think too many people fit that category.



Why not? Daz Studio does it. it's not that big of a deal. Just a menu option that loads a UI preference set.

I'd think you'd be surprised. I could run reloaded well on Intel HD3000 (which is terrible 'gpu'). Ultrabooks or standard laptops (15.6" isn't much bigger) account for a vast section of the 'casual' market. Of the people I know, or younger brothers or sisters of people I know probably as little as 5% have a desktop over a laptop.


I understand how its done, and would potentially be the ideal way to resolve this, but is that not the same as having a button to check the boxes to turn on all the extra stuff, normally hidden by default? In which case its basically the same as what I said before, when you first load the software, its "new users mode" set it to advanced mode/turn your extra panels on, and they're there. Same thing really? Just means in case of new users you get basic first.

With all due respect, I don't think you really know the stats on what people outside your circle of family and friends own.







Just about. And I already conceded that and am fine with it. I just want you to come to the point where you are less into resisting these things because of personal bias. You still seem to want to put your personal bias over what you admittedly know is standard and acceptable.

I'll just add the following so you can better understand where I'm coming from. I'm all for having a product that is easy to use and user friendly out of the box and allows the most inexperienced user to create something. But that same tool needs to have all the functionality and features for more experienced and professional users to have full control over every aspect of their creation. Otherwise, this product will never be anything but a toy for kids to play with.

Quite possibly, I don't know a vast number of people, and certainly not enough for an accurate representation. At university however, the minority have desktops. People Younger than me with multiple siblings usually share a desktop/console and have their own laptop. Obviously, out of all the users of Reloaded, that total of laptop users could be anything from 4% to 30%, I'd have no idea. When doing software design however, I know I have to include all of them when thinking about UI.





It's not just personal bias though, if it were I'd have given up ages ago. What I'm resisting is overcomplicating a UI with only small benefit to some users, and a negative element for new users (even if minority).



Since some of your explanations further up I can see some of the potential benefits to such a system, where before it just seemed like more clutter (as it can be when badly implemented). As I said before:



That didn't mean grudging acceptance, it meant IF it provided enough functionality as you described above to justify using that portion of my screen I would accept it to be a worthwhile addition



If on the other hand it were a simple list allowing basic grouping and no more (which is my initial concern) then its not providing enough to justify the space.







This I'll always agree with

Again, that's your personal opinion. Only a small benefit? From my perspective it's a huge, massive benefit. And it's only negative if you decide to click and show the hierarchy and are somehow incapable of turning it off.



Great. We agree finally. Give us my version that also has your stuff and we are good to go. See how easy that was?

Only a small benefit if implemented badly, out of context its opinion, in context I go in to say I'd agree with it if properly implemented, as you described
I've seen some software where there is a hierarchy which is just there to show you stuff. You can't click on it or operate on it directly it's simply a glorified list. That was what I was thinking of at the very start of the thread. Clearly your idea of a hierarchy is the correct concept, how its meant to to be, rather than my experience to date.
My experience to date is badly implemented (as just described, a glorified list - the small benefit I was referring to), or over complicated and buggy (Motion 5).

Had I initially fully understood what your hierarchy was, much of the above thread wouldn't have been needed


Indeed.

Now, hands-up, who else in the forum wants an entity lock?
(Implemented on its own and as a function in a hierarchy and/or select tool )

Some feature of a hierarchy system that I would like are:

1. Dragging objects to be children of other objects thus allowing you to select the parent and move all children together as well as encapsulating things that belong together. For example, if I have a camp with a tent, some benches, a fire pit, fire particle effect, and some rocks. I could group them together and call it campsite. Then I can move the entire campsite anywhere I want as well as duplicate it and put it in several places.
2. When you select an entity in the hierarchy you also get the properties pane for that entity, which allows you to edit xyz, hpr, scaling, physics, etc.
3. Multi-selecting entities in the hierarchy allows you to modify their properties all at once. For example, scaling them all by the same value with a single entry.
4. Layers. Put items into defined layers then show/hide all entities in those layers with a simple checkbox click. So you can hide all trees and foliage while you work on other things. Or hide your enemies or markers, or whatever else that's getting in the way.
5. Search for entities in a hierarchy if you don't know where they are.
6. Click an entity in the hierarchy and press a key to frame that entity in the 3D editor. So, if I have one special barrel inside a building that is on a part of the map no where near where the current view is, I can click it in the hierarchy and then instantly zoom to it with a single keystroke. Or I can just edit its properties without having to even have it in view.
7. Have multiple rendering modes selectable per entity or layer. This is something I saw in Messiah Studio which was nice. I think Unity has something similar as well. You could tell the editor how you want specific entities to render such as textured, wireframe, solid, transparent, etc. Then that entity or layer always renders a certain way in the editor. Could help you see certain entities that might be in the way, but see through them for easy editing of entities in and around it.

Just some of the things I can think of at the moment. I'm sure there are more.

Agreed, but don't knock it because of one bad implementation.

And you have my vote for entity lock. In fact. That's another feature of the hierarchy that could be added. A little lock icon next to the entity in the hierarchy. See how great hierarchies can be?

All of which are more than enough that to justify such a system
Besides Reloaded and Classic I have had almost no experience with other game engines, since my focus as a hobby is on film/photography (and some programming) so I haven't used software before where such a range of things are available in that format, hence my confusion.

When one bad implementation is 50% of your experience (and a buggy one the other) its not always obvious that the experience is not just 'how it's done'.


I think we are finally on the same page

I think we need to recruit more people though, since a basic lock (to be improved upon) would seem like being easy and quick for Lee to implement and would certainly save me (and I think quite a few others) frustration when using the currently limited toolset, especially the 10 who will be proceeding with the next bit of the contest when the shortlist is decided/announced

Cool. I'm a filmmaker myself and a professional programmer. So we have a lot in common.

Do you use DSLR's for filming? I do a lot with a Canon 700D and my older 550D. Eventually plan on getting the 70D, or the equivalent model when I have cash, and actually need a new camera. The 700D currently caters for all my needs

My last production we used the EOS Rebel T2i/T3i, but I've also used traditional video cameras such as the Sony HDV. You can see samples on my website.

Nice kit

Took a look at your site, good work on there Sorry its taken me a while to respond here, I didn't get an email about your post, and have been on the forums a little less frequently over the past few days.

It would be good to get a bit of feedback from SC/Lee about the entity lock idea though, since on its own this shouldn't be too hard to implement and I think would benefit quite a few of us even in a simple form where there are lot of entities placed.