Just wanted to check, does FPSC reloaded currently support models with multiple materials?



If not will this be applied in a future build?

Been hoping it will myself...Although I found a work around it would be so much easier if it does as default..



Also some tools I bought for modelling wont be wasted

what is the workaround? Can you explain how it works here please?

I explained all in this thread. This works great for me using 3D World studio

Hope its of some use.



http://fpscrforum.thegamecreators.com/?m=forum_view&t=208093&b=8

Lee has stated that multi texture is a no as it only slows the engine down sorry

That's disappointing !!

Why is it disappointing ? Just means you have to increase texture size from 1024 x 2048 or 2048 x 2048.I have been doing so for a while, and have done so with the latest pack.



By using larger textures you can fit every thing on it you need to map, I am hoping to use a single 2048 x 2048 texture for my next pack.

Because the only software I am familiar with does not allow the textures to be put on a single map

I still don't see how this will limit you creating meshes for FPSC ? You can literally build a sky scrapper and map it with a single texture.



Understand that on performance issues, it is a lot more cost effective to use a single mesh texture, really there is no need to use multiple textures for a single mesh, when it can be done with a single texture, it's pointless really, thought you wouldn't increase texture memory much but it will increase GPU overhead, every texture you add, means there is a draw call, and that is what you want to avoid, as that will eat performance.



There are instances where this might be useful, wait...... can't think of any really, that can't be done with a single texture.

Well, it could be useful for many things really. Say you have a very large object that has an interior. You want the object to animate and move around, so breaking it into separate parts, as you can do with buildings would not be a good option. Multiple textures would certainly help keep quality up, whereas on single texture, even 2048x2048 will likely mean blockier textures all round. It would mean one extra draw call per texture, but that is not all that much more to handle, if you are sparing with how many objects actually use more than one texture. Would it not be better to allow this, with a warning that overusing it may slow down your game?



I am halfway through a model design, but I have stopped as I am thinking once I get round to texturing it, it will look a little fuzzy. I was hoping to have an interior to the object, but I just know it will either look very samey, or fuzzy with just one texture. At least with my texture mapping skills I hate UV unwrapping lol.



@ synchromesh. What software are you using? I'm not aware of any software that doesn't allow you to use a single texture, apart from maybe sketchup, and I may be wrong about that lol. You could try something like Lithunwrap if it doesn't. That will help you sort out a UV map for any object you can load into it. Of course UV unwrapping is an art in itself, certainly a lot harder than using basic textures mapped on directly in a 3d package. Blender certainly supports all sorts of UV mapping options and is free so a good choice. It may take some time to get even half familiar with it though, as it is not the easiest program to get into. Especially if you are used to other more orthodox packages.



Here are a few models I have made in Blender so far since getting into it

Which is why Lee isn't going to support it, people would go crazy, then complain, I created a 2048 x 2048 texture to see how much I could fit on it without having to reduce quality of the textures, managed to place 7 textures on it.



I am sorry that is just a poor excuse, want to animate a large object, I require multi textures to do that. 2048 x 2048 texture map, would be high quality still even at 600 x 600 x 600 units that is 30% of the FPSC classic map size, even then you can apply reasonable scaling to the object if you need it larger.



I am sorry I am not buying into multi texture for a mesh.

Wow. I was only suggesting a reason for it to be useful. It is a valid reason, not an excuse. You have the right to disagree, but you need to calm down a little. Quite a few Buildings you can buy off the store have separate parts to enable clearer textures. You can easily see the difference in quality between those and the single objects. Many free objects off web sites are also multi texture, normally to have a detailed map of a face for instance.

I didn't say multi texture was the only way to have a large animated object, just that it would improve it's quality. When it comes to the crunch, any engine will struggle if people throw too much at it. It is down to the game developer to ensure they are optimal with their models and textures. Obviously Reloaded has a way to go performance wise yet, so talk about adding multi texture is just a discussion point at the moment. Also for 99% of the time single textures will suffice.

I will add, even the objects included with Reloaded look a bit blocky when you really closely examine a wall. Multitexturing would reduce that significantly. Fair enough, an expert 3D artist will probably be able to produce almost the same quality with one map, with good initial texturing within the 3D package and then baking the result to a single texture. Of course the majority of Reloaded users will not be expert 3D artists. Including myself.

Your both right up to a point, there aren't many games which use multiple textures for two reasons. One is draw calls and the other is shader use, apart from that even if all textures were to use the same shader, you would need to call the spec and normal maps as well.



What many of those new to uv mapping do is to use a third party unwrapper which will always unwrap and pack separate clusters (islands) into their own uv space, which means that each cluster needs its own texture space. You can in fact overlay clusters and the engine performs its own 'unwrap' for lightmapping which means a small texture can be used for a very large object without any loss of resolution.



Of course this wont work for every model where you may want a baked AO or whatever, but in general it's the best way to go, particularly for architectural models.



The main reason for multiple maps may be if certain parts of a model may be swapped out, such as weapons and hand textures, it was the only reason you had multiple textures for dynamic objects in Classic, that and the fact these were usually in the players face. Static objects should not require multiple textures (whatever the scale) in a game engine if uv mapped properly.



When you have a game engine designed for easy use by a whole bunch of individuals and not a game designed by a 'team' then it's really a lot on your plate to get perfect optimisation and the reason you wont see many Atlas textures for Reloaded media, when users will mix and match whatever they have in their library.



For us Artists it's a real juggling act and we have to be very aware when creating media for use by others, it's the reason Wiz is so uptight about it, so forgive him if he seems a little irate



Just an aside, but I reckon Reloaded should handle texture sizes up to 4096x4096, if anyone was thinking of creating their own media and Atlas textures for their own games.

I am not uptight :p It's difficult to explain, how I go about mesh creation, rolfy has a better grasp of that and might be able to explain it better,Which is why I am saying honestly I have never come across the need to have a feature like that.



it's far better to have several meshes combined to create a single structure in game, not only that it gives you the opportunity to reuse a mesh again in a different way.Thought quality is an important aspect to consider efficiency and practical application would often super seed to some extent.



However it means working with a couple of hundred meshes, current project contains a 100 meshes so far, it's certainly mot easily to manage it we you have a couple of hundred. But honestly it is well worth the effort.









This is a 26 mesh structure used with FPSC segment creator, uses 5 textures,1 texture has been used 20 over times by moving the uvmaps to different parts on the texture map.

I reckon you will all be happy when you can use separate meshes with separate textures and build these up in the new shiny construction kit which will collapse it all to a single model and texture, according to the plan anyhow



Get ready to throw away that segment creator, it's of no use for Reloaded

I don't throw away stuff :p I pack stuff in a single folder with multiple stuff.

my main issue is wanting to create models with transparent components. Say for example, a building with glass windows, a soldier with a transparent visor or a weapon with a transparent holographic or red dot sight.

You don't need multi textures for that, you use an alpha channel in a single texture.

@DVader



Im using 3D World studio as its very similar to The mapping I used to do in GTK Radiant...I can use hundreds of textures to build a city if I want and export the whole thing as a .X model.. That I am capable of doing



But the textures

Blender doesn't render a model transparent unless you use a seperate transparent material?

Rolfy means to have a window you need the part of the texture that contains the glass image to be transparent or semi opaque. Then you will see through it. That means using an alpha map, which basically means part of the image is set to a low or zero transparency value. Fade your windows image opacity down to a low value and you should be set.



@ Synchromesh. I have never used 3D World Studio so can't help there. What formats can it export to? You may have to texture the objects in a different package.

It's hard to move away from a package you know and can get good results from, but it sounds as if it may not be good for Reloaded work. Blender is a tough cookie to get into, I know how awkward it is to begin with. I'm still only barely competent with it, having only scratched the surface. It does the job as well as 3DS used to though, so I am happy with it. If you can persevere and re-try it you may end up liking it.

FPSC Classic had a bad reputation for performance, a lot of this was down to users and some Artists who created media without enough thought for optimisation and the engine was blamed rather than bad level design. It's a given when you have an engine thats drag and drop user friendly that your going to have users who really haven't dug deep enough into how it all works that this is going to happen. This isn't a criticism just a fact.



It is perhaps a good thing that at the early stages of development these kind of discussions are thrown up so users and Artists have a better understanding of whats required at their end to make a decent performing game.



I know many pro's who curse at the thought of uv mapping, I am one of those weird ones who actually enjoys the challenge of it



It doesn't really matter what software your rendering your models in when creating and it's how the game engine does it that counts, if want to compare then see how slowly Blender for example renders an image and then think of how a games engine refreshes these same images at many frames per second. So it makes no difference how Blender applies materials, this won't help when you have to import to Reloaded. If you want your game to run at it's best then you have to think of how best to squeeze every frame using a very tight texture budget, it all may seem like you have plenty of room for now but when you start to get hundreds of object into a level design (if not thousands) then your going to notice and no point blaming the engine alone for this,



If you want to use your own media in your game there are certain skills you will need to learn, just as us Artists have to learn differently for game design. For those of us who create media for others to use in many different games its even more of a challenge than it would be if working for a single project.



Another aside...lol...many of those CGI scenes you see in movies are using a lot of the same techniques, shader effects and downright low poly fakery you see in game engines otherwise those extremely high poly and high res scenes would take years to render out, it's not all down to super fast computers and render farms

I've asked the guy doing the Reloaded Importer to have a think about multi-material and multi-texture model imports. There IS a way to load these models using a new C++ module for DBP, and then export out a new model which combines the textures and in the case of multi-material, combines meshes to form a single model with one mesh and one texture. It means a larger texture export, or in the most extreme cases, squashed texture resolutions, but it would mean super-fast entities for your performance critical games. I must warn though that I consider this a V2 feature and I first want to see the basic importer integrated, tested and released before we embark on these 'nice to have' options.

@LeeBamber

That's Great news that your actually looking into it. As DVader states "It's hard to move away from a package you know and can get good results from"

I even purchased Leadwerks Game engine thinking it was an evolution of 3D World Studio so

I try and get all the textures that I will need in a 4096 x 4096 texture. That is 16 textures on one image or 15 1024 x 1024 textures and some smaller ones that are required if needed. I believe it reduces draw calls only having to call a few large textures instead of 50 medium or smaller ones. defiantly easier when making the FPE files for the stuff.



Each Sub Texture can have its own special needs depending on which shader is being called. opacity, more specular or less specular, different normal depths. Since we have a shader that is good for multiple situations, I feel having all the needed textures on one works very well. I put all of the environment in this texture. The only single textures I have is for characters. So far the Reloaded game engine seems to take it well, as well as the classic engine.



Below is an example of one such texture for reloaded or Classic. All maps where combined for visual. Don't put your _d, _s, _n textures together







Nothing in download button. Don't know what's up with that.

@ Lee. Cool, I thought I'd heard somewhere that the importer may well do this at some point. A nice workaround, in fact it sounds a very useful tool indeed! Nice one.

@ Rolfy, you enjoy the challenge eh? Lol, I'll have to send you a model to challenge y

4096x4096 is a Dx9 limitation I think not a limitation of the software itself so it probably goes way back.



As I said though there is no point in using Atlas textures for models unless its intended to use all these in a single level, so it's kind of restricted to individual designs, you wont see much of it in the store or packs since users may use only one entity which calls the entire texture. Specifying uv coords in the code is the normal way of using these rather than doing it manually. So if you find you have to re-use individual models then they can use their own smaller texture size when needed.



It's a really good way to do entire towns or whatever.



What I tend to do for FPSC is to reuse single textures over many models,you can do entire scenes with a single 1024x1024 and still have good resolution if done imaginatively. Wiz seems to have a handle on it where he shifts areas around to get a little variation. In Classic it was a little wasteful where stock segments were concerned and it randomised 3-4 separate textures for walls and floors to get variation, where these textures should have been put into an Atlas.



If as I suspect using code to place coords is the way its intended for any importer to work, it may be possible that this could be specified by users themselves in some way, not sure but a great idea.



It's all great stuff for individuals to use when creating their games and good knowledge to have but not the best idea for model packs since it may be that users will pull an Atlas 4096x4096 for only a couple of meshes.

I think we're talking about different things here. I'm referring to materials, not textures. The following is a model of a spacesuit I'm making I intend to use in a future game.



Here it is in Blender, with the 2 materials visible:-





Here is the rendered version, with a transparent visor. What i want to know is how you would maintain the transparent material in FPSCR?

Different 3d programs use different material methods and even if a material hierarchy were to be introduced to FPSCR such as say UDK's it wouldn't be structured the same as any you use in your chosen 3d modeling program.



You cant use material info from Blender in other 3d editors such as Max or Maya or vice versa and the same goes for different game engines, so you need to bake a texture from your materials and use an Alpha channel for the transparent area of the texture map

so to be clear if i want a transparency in FPSCR I need to make it magenta in the diffuse map?

Not at all, just use anything from black or grey in the alpha channel of the Diffuse texture and you will notice your entity texture be [semi]transparent

Hi Lee, sometimes I wonder if your talking about the last Beta's released out to to users or versions your using right now, maybe things simply don't always work as you expect them to

I have been testing transparency extensively and will post a bug report concerning all the different issues I have found soon. As for semi transparency it can be achieved by making changes to the shader but this causes draw issues with other transparent entity's.

Just drop me a quick email with a simple test case of the transparency issue you are seeing and I can report if it is fixed