So with DirectX 12 in testing and with the release getting closer it makes me think more about the fact we are using DirectX 9 how does everyone feel about this.



Do you think steps should have been made to make it DX10 or even DX11.

This is more of a FPSCR related discussion I feel so I have relocated the thread.

Well, they certainly seem to have been looking to the future with the Occultus Rift work, so let's hope they'll also be foresighted in taking whatever steps are required to ensure Reloaded is a contemporary product when it comes out in a useable form, with long shelf life.

I hope so Kilgore as it may be next year before it goes retail and i dont want to be releasing games that feel like they are from the 80s that's just a bit of humor in-case people start flaming .

yeah that's right, after all even lee has said support for dx9 stuff is limited or something now adays?! and given we pledgers are ment to get lifetime updates for fpscr I would like to hope that tgc have at least got some plans for newer dx releases and reloaded working with them!!?.



reloaded might well be another year or so in the making before we can make finished games if reloaded still uses dx9 long term will it have a lifetime of longer than the dev period really? what with dx12 release coming at some point in the future?.

hey guys,



What should I say about x12 support or even x10/x11 support. You know COD Ghost? It is based on x11 and it looks on high settings like a game from 2007. Then look at crysis/crysis warhead. Even when I use x9 with crysis it looks amazing. High Textures, great shaders and a very good performance made my days last month. So why thinking about a new technology when you could work with a old technology which is definatly not outdated. New is better, but also more complicated. It is maybe (my opinion) not the best way for a beginner engine. Think about it.



I am happy with x9 but maybe I am too old.



Corno_1

I agree and disagree with you Corno you make some valid points but its what DX11 offers like for example



Tessellation – Tessellation is implemented on the GPU to calculate a smoother curved surface resulting in more graphically detailed images



Multi-Threading – The ability to scale across multi-core CPUs will enable developers to take greater advantage of the power within multi-core CPUs. This results in faster framerates for games, while still supporting the increased visual detailing.



Pixel Shader 5.0.



Transparency Anti-aliasing.



Ambient Occlusion.



Post-Processing Effects.



The Multi-Threading would be great i know dx9 offers some but DirectX 9 dosent support native multithreading and most part of the API are not thread-safe.



I know the engine is already in full swing and will be using DX9 i just wanted to see what peoples thoughts were on it

Thanks





Definatly a point



I did not know that x9 not support Multi-Threading. I always thought the engine FPSC x9 not support it, but x9 support it. Not sure about it. Maybe someone can clear me up.



My graphic card not support this, so I can not say any advantage of it.



Never heart about it, what is this?



Definatly a point



I thought we had this already in fpsc x9. So what is the difference between the x9 thing and x11

I bet I'm older than you, Corno



I absolutely take your point and agree with it to a large extent. For me, it isn't so much the cutting-edge graphics (anyone who thinks a budget entry-level game maker will compete with the very latest AAAs is in for a wake up call). It is more about support and longevity.



Let's suppose it's going to be another year before Reloaded is close to a package that most people can use in anger. It will then be maybe a further year or two (or much more) before any customers (us) are going to complete a high quality game of their own. So, realistically, Reloaded games will have run 'out of the box' in 2016 and well beyond.



I would like a solid pledge from TGC that, provided the world isn't hit by a huge meteorite before then, Reloaded games will be supported to run for the average PC user for many years to come. That means timely updates as required for new mainstream operating systems, and so on. I think we need that assurance.

I think eventually it will be likely that newer versions of DirectX will have to be supported, but as most of you know, Stability, performance, memory use and AI are the current focus. Let's get a decent engine out there first, and then worry about future proofing .



SC

True, but there has to be one eye on the future, too. At least in terms of the basic capacity for the product to have a long enough shelf life to make it worth customers developing games with.



I'm sure TGC are well aware of that, but it isn't something that seems to have been mentioned.

I wouldn't get too hung up on a number. I still think that DX9 is the safest choice. It's what 90+% of the games on Steam run. It WON'T be going away.



You can bet your pants that Microsoft will tie DX12 to their latest operating system, either Windows 8.1+ or Windows 9. DX10 was a complete and utter failure, and even the number of games that require DX11 pale compared to DX9.



Tesselation has been around for years now, and has failed to catch on in any significant way. It has been mainly featured in tech-demos, or implemented in trivial ways in some games that are barely noticeable.



On the old TGC forums a couple years back, I predicted that tesselation wouldn't really catch on in a big way. Some users thought I was crazy, but still here we are in 2014 and it's barely used. It's not a matter of simply turning it on and suddenly your game looks more detailed. Artists have to create the assets with tesselation in mind, which is not exactly trivial.

I suppose that we can also take some reassurance from the fact that the new consoles aren't exactly game-changers with regard to what they deliver. It's not as though they're pushing game software way beyond what DX9 can do. And the consoles will be the benchmark for a few years yet.

By the look of the latest blog post, TGC will be adding DirectX11



http://fpscreloaded.blogspot.co.uk/2014/03/weekend-research.html

yeah at some point in the future sounds promising, maybe 32bit will be upgraded to 64bit aswell in the future??

So how old are you Kilgore? I'm a few years the plus side of a half century .





I'm assuming that the first "release" of FPSCR will be under DX9, but Lee mentions that DX11 will probably be worked in afterwards (maybe it will need to be DX12 by then). My hope is that TGC doesn't go down the previous FPSC road where the products were actually different SKUs, thereby it not being an upgrade but instead a new purchase. In other words, DX11 (or DX12 for that matter) support should be added to FPSCR as part of the "lifetime free upgrades" and not made into a new product that has to be repurchased (like previous FPSC products).





This is because DX9 has been around for so long, compared to DX11. Many (PC) development companies are now focused on DX11 development and there have been quite a few games (released and in the works) now targeting the capabilities of DX11. Some of the hold back can probably be attributed to Windows XP (DX11 is supported under Vista and above), but with the Windows XP "extended support" lifecycle coming to an end in April, I think much of that will follow suit.





While it is true that Tessellation has been around for many years, I think it has been used more in the past than you purport. It has also been coming more into focus recently. In fact, both Valve and ID Software have been actively putting it to use in their character creations (and applying to their existing ones) of late. Additionally, recent releases (and some as far back as 2010) are starting to make more use of it both extensively or in varying degrees. For example, Alien Vs. Predator and Metro 2033 (2010 games) made extensive use of tessellation as has Max Payne 3 and some other newer games.



Tessellation is not an "all or nothing" thing. Many games are using it only where appropriate, like Thief, Assassin's Creed IV, Dirt 2, Battlefield 4, Stalker: CoP, Crysis 3, and others. Sometimes it is used only for faces of characters, water surfaces, buildings, and wind affected entities like flags, banners, etc., or some combination thereof.



Additionally, there are quite a few popular games using or supporting DX11 now, and I'm pretty sure the list will continue to grow as AAA companies have been adopting it over the last couple years. Frankly, any number of them could be making use of tessellation already, even if they haven't come out and explicitly said so. My suggestion would be to not count it out as a viable feature, and perhaps more "artists" should start taking it into account when creating new content.





FYI... for those who are wondering "Just what is this tessellation thing?" - Nvidia has a nice description / info to it.

I agree Thurnok this would be so bad but i wouldn't mind paying something for the upgrade as it would take alot of coding.

I hate when people say things like they don't want to pay for an upgrade. tgc software is cheap and you get your money worth from their stuff. I don't paying to support the hard work that is put in to making a game engine. also all this talk about Dx12 is pointless right now. even if Lee consider the option you would have to wonder this.



will Dx12 work on windows 7 or is it window 8 only?



who all own a window 8 and those who don't will they be willing to upgrade to windows 8 for it.



right now Dx11 is tricky to have because there is a Dx11.1 out only for windows 8.it's sad to say but there is also still some xp users out there. TGC want to make their software available for anyone to use which is smart for business sales. so using Dx9 and low key performance is a better way to go. one thing that kill fpscx10 chances is because people did not like vista so I believe learn their lesson form this and don't try to jump on the hype wagon first. instead see who all will be able to support the new Dx12 first and what is going to be the downside about it. so TGC did the right thing with reload by playing it safe this time around.



unlike most company's TGC don't just throw software out there and hit us with a pay to upgrade every year like 3dmax or adobe photoshop which these type of software cost a lot of money even if you already have to old version you are still paying half the price for an upgrade. so pay for a new api version of reload that will last us for the next years to come with free updates is well worth the price.

michael x i was only pointing out the fact that directX 12 was coming soon





There wasn't much talk about it more what do you guys think.





i cant seem to find anyone saying this :/







I could be wrong but for example they are asking us to buy a product to secure the content that we make.



ANIMER 2.2 isn't an upgrade you must buy



but anyway this is getting way off topic the whole thread was more about using directx 9 next year as to make any money back at all we will have to sell games.

I think if a game is good, and done well, the people buying won't care a fig what direct x version it runs on. Having the option of both new and old version support will be good down the line of course. Many games have an option for either, which is good for backwards compatibility. Hopefully Reloaded will have this option too in the distant future. There are many things I would like to see before Lees disappears for 6 months or more to get a new DX version integrated Also, to be fair, the games I have seen in both DX9 and DX10/11 versions don't look that drastically different. Of course that could just be the games I have seen.

This is true its more just making it run better as far as i know.

Don't worry about DX11/12 at this point, we have plenty of fun still to be had with DX9 and the main engine improvements. Longer term it makes sense to look closer at this, and there is no harm in running a parallel development to convert DBP to DX11 as long as it does not affect me or my Reloaded workload. It's now on my long term radar but will not distract or defocus me from what needs to happen right now

assuming this was directed at me...

I pay for upgrades to products all the time, never said I have a problem with it. So if you were directing that statement at me, please refrain from putting words into my mouth.



If you read the pledge features "Free updates for life" - it is a "feature" to get free updates for this product by being a pledger. So, in essence, you pay to support bringing this product to life, and in turn as a benefit, you get free updates for life.



So sure, if you do not spend a dime on this product until it is fully released, please feel free to pay for every update made afterwards, and feel good about yourself. However, by the same token, if you pledge ahead of time (in all probability a year or more before release) and receive free updates for life as a feature of your pledge, you can feel good about yourself as well.



To clarify, my inference is simply the old saying "Say what you mean, mean what you say".

I just started playing Crysis this morning. So I am glad you brought it up. Crysis was made in 2007 and still by today's standards the game looks better than a lot of games released in 2012/2013. The rendering capabilities of DX9 are brilliant. If you want to produce a game that looks good, then hire an artist who has the ability to produce AAA content for you.



I don't think there is any short term viability to support DX11 or 12. Perhaps in the long run. But as Lee stated, what we need now is an Engine that is stable and delivers performance.

Thanks for the feedback guys i have requested that the thread now be closed

Locked at authors request.



SC