Product Chat / Construction Kit Video

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RickV
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Posted: 14th Feb 2014 23:35
Hi,



Learn more about the Construction Kit in this latest video:









Rick

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Pirate Myke
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Posted: 14th Feb 2014 23:53
Nice progress. Looks easy to operate.

SorrowCrown
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Posted: 15th Feb 2014 00:14
It looks nice but... Will we be able to create different types of blocks, shapes? Lets suppose i want to create my own size block with custom height and width. Or door that is not square shape..will that be able? Thx
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TattieBoJangle
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Posted: 15th Feb 2014 00:15
Looks good will we be able to use the paint tool on our own models ect

The Next
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Posted: 15th Feb 2014 00:32
Quote: "It looks nice but... Will we be able to create different types of blocks, shapes? Lets suppose i want to create my own size block with custom height and width. Or door that is not square shape..will that be able? Thx"




This was actually said in the video, you can use your own .x files and they will work
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SorrowCrown
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Posted: 15th Feb 2014 00:38
Oh, thx...i was watching it with no sound....
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almightyhood
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Posted: 15th Feb 2014 00:41
interesting vid, thanks

have fun stay safe

hood
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Teabone
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Posted: 15th Feb 2014 01:41 Edited at: 17th Feb 2014 21:20
Looks like we'll get prefabs, can use our own pieces, can turn snapping on and off... something you could not do with segments... and not forced to a fixed title scale.





I like!

Thurnok
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Posted: 15th Feb 2014 01:58
Yep, I'm excited to get this into my hands to play with. Hoping we'll see it soon (even if not finished). Hey, FPSCR is still in Alpha too, so I'm OK with the construction kit not being finished when I get the chance to first play with it!
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madwarren
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Posted: 15th Feb 2014 03:17
Very excited to see the progress in this tool kit.
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s4real
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Posted: 15th Feb 2014 12:01
I realy hope they keep the old method as well as this just makes the whole thing look like a toy.



If you want to do this just get Garry mod.



If its just an option to help build your levels then thats great but the old method is fast and easy this would be so painful to build whole levels this way.





Also I hope this feature will not be in the built games.





As with everything with reloaded at the moment I'm just seeing more eyecandy that may look great but tbh this product just isn't shaping up to be something you could work with and make a game like fpsc classic.



I understand that this is all beta and this is what I feel about how reloaded is moving.



My personal views is just that and does not reflect what others think.





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J0linar
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Posted: 15th Feb 2014 13:39
Now nothing against the fps view hands but lets be honest, this is no minecraft it is a fps creator.



I would suggest moving away from this method and

simply add guis that are clickable so that ppl can concentrate on the stuff they want to do.

Another suggestion is regarding the camera View itself.



Add a dropdown gui with the switchable cameramodes.



example



*fps - locked at the fps view of the character



*thirdperson - locked at the character/ follows character



*free view



*orthographic - for faster entity placement such as

roads/ city blocks....



If you think about this, with this approach you/ we would move towards a more user friendly tool.

Lets just assume we get a road/path tool in the future - it would be best to have it linked to the construction kit and by changing camera modes

to orthographic/ freeview - users would be able to place their entitys much better.



Now those are just ideas/suggestions

still i like what i see here and one can easily imagine to use this for some more complex stuff.

keep it up TGC!

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Uman
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Posted: 15th Feb 2014 14:50
I can understand s4real and his concerns and comments.



Visually looks like the tool will be quite basic in some ways in and of itself internally and may not be developed to become an advanced construction tool and object editor working seemingly with primitives with little way of editing those primitives internally other than with basic placements, rotations and so on. Not sure that you could say even actually scale any object by manipulating faces, edges or vertex's to drag a wall side outwards say to any width you want. I guess not as that's the reason for the tool it works to set scales, dimensions based on internal structures much like older segments I guess. though maybe not?



Apparently you will be able to import your own shapes (dont know about complex models) but how primitive your own would be I guess will have to follow the Kit internal requirements?



Presuming if you want a complex building you will still be able to import or place any say building entity model as you do now giving due consideration to its complexity and suitability and any impact it has on your level.



This tool is I guess a method for world building of objects intended to replace segments and which gives a way of easily creating such in an internal way that can be used by anyone without being an expert model builder and so on. A tool for everyone out of the box for those that wish for no more. Thus it has a very useful role to play.



Its early days and we don't know anything much about it other than whats seen to date. Looking at what can be seen it I agree does not look like it will become a very advanced or sophisticated model builder or editor tool for building complex structures or detail though using primitives that could probably be done if yo use enough of them if the shapes are relatively primitive themselves. You may need a lot of small pieces - lego blocks as referred to. How you would managed with complex shapes, curves and so on I have no Idea - perhaps you don't or wont be able to work with such.



I presume it will eventually provide for things like Arched doorways and alike and will do everything that could be done with the older segments at the least and perhaps is more flexible. The 3D real time editing does allow one to get a good sense of what you are building/texturing and so on in situ to make any changes or adjustments too.



I can understand the concerns though. Again many different opinions as always.



There are I guess the two viewpoints and I can also see that on the one hand as a marketing and promotional item (and perhaps developer useful one) that the tool akin to a Garry's Mod or minecraft or similar type construction tool may have wide appeal to many potential users from numerous aspects - a somewhat helpful and fun tool with a little light hearted influence to brighten up the day for those it suits. This may give it with the additional visual look and feel incorporated a somewhat not very serious tool for serious game makers though it may fit in with the overall strategy for the product. Of course if you would be allowing end user game players to mod physically elements of your game then that has some obvious need for some sort of careful consideration as to where that would be leading and who it is of benefit. I am sure many game makers would have some concerns for that if it was a default and uncontrollable hard coded ability they could not manage.



I am not sure visually it would do a lot to promote Reloaded as a serious game making tool in the standard sense to those who look for that so much unless the power of the tool itself can be shown to be so in game levels being made with it which would be obvious and convincing of that. As we know first impressions often count though.



For those that would feel this to be the case then one would have to ignore the tools visual presentation and fun approach aspect itself and concentrate on its power whatever it becomes and just get on and use it to develop as normal/previously as with the old segments using it to best advantage and making some good content, world design and levels.



Though it may not suit all visually as a tool I guess what matters is what you can do with it which remains to be seen in practical application. On the face of it I agree it looks like it may not be very advanced in terms of the complexity structures you may easily be able to build with it perhaps purposefully so. It would also seem that as suggested it may be slow to work with if building large worlds. ( I am sure users will get up to a max speed when they master it whatever it is). Then maybe you wont be building large complex worlds with it like large cities full of complexity as for that we also need it to be efficient and go easy on the Reloaded performance returns. If it is heavy as impacting on performance then I guess you will be just building a few simple small buildings or other constructions here and there where appropriately possible. I guess its a compromise between highly detailed object models and simple one and then using the power of textures to add fine complex looking details in an attempt to meet all needs.



lastly it is however obviously a very complex and powerful piece of software nevertheless as far as it goes and not to detract from the skills and hard work needed to develop and include it - not to take that away from TGC. Such a tool and a more advanced one even is not easy to provide to end users as with much of the rest of the development.



Clearly TGC has already included such as the ability for your end users to manipulate and edit various aspects of the game world. Much like this tool that may be a considered and potentially good selling and promotional feature for both TGC and in some instances the user game makers.



As with most things it would be helpful and best if the game maker had the option when publishing their game to managed and control what the end game includes and what features are made available to end users so Reloaded is suitable for as many as possible.



The game designer/game maker should have the choice to enable or disable end game user features including level editing. Everyone should then be happy.



Personally I am for choice and flexibility as far as possible. I don't mind the fun, primitive, simple easy to use type of interface. I am more concerned with what lies beneath and what that delivers in day to day use and application, despite that may influence visually the products initial influence on viewers impressions of the engine.



In the long term if games made are good then it will all be for the good as it gets around that such is the case.



Early days for this tool though as with everything Reloaded the reality and danger perhaps is and always has been making something as advanced as many would like was always a tall order given the circumstances so one has to compromise perhaps to a level not necessarily ideal, required or best, not by choice but by force of those prevailing circumstances.



I would presume that TGC are well aware of any issues that could be improved over the older segment method and this tool will or should at least be an improvement on that as with the Reloaded engine all round.



s4real
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Posted: 15th Feb 2014 15:14 Edited at: 15th Feb 2014 15:15
I agree what you say uman well said.



Another thing to think about is again performance, this is ok with one building but think how slow the render could be with a full map and loads of complex items.



Not sure where they going with it at the moment if its just a fun add on tool or what.



This may not infact be in fpsc reloaded yet and a dbp project.





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Uman
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Posted: 15th Feb 2014 16:43
To be fair I think we need to give some time to see how it develops. Building a Construction Kit and any other plugin/module feature depending upon what it is envisaged to become and do is much like the same as developing the Reloaded engine itself I would think. It could be a long, difficult job if it is to be advanced and offer more in either capability and quality.



I guess initially it will like Reloaded be a basic base on which to build from potential further ongoing so users can get their hands on it as soon as possible as they always wish to do.



The problem is that as we know to do that you have to start with that base just as with Reloaded and put in place the base (structure) that indeed can be expanded on successfully and if possible easily without the need to start from scratch or update the whole in a major way from the base up. i.e. get the base right from the start and avoid much grief later. An Ideal world scenario which we don't have perhaps.



The same may apply to other things yet to add. AI for example. Lee has recently said himself I believe that much of his earlier work on prototypes did not pan out as expected or needed. If I am correct then there is a AI module being looked at being developed and the Character Creator/Editor - whatever. Again someone is designing these from the base up I guess as always the choices one makes initially and early on can shape the final result with the possibilities they can support for forward ongoing development of them or not. Fixed, suitable for and capable of expansion or not and so on. Then I guess these also have to expect that the main engine core can also be in a condition and capable of giving them the support they need. Could be described as efficient interaction with each of the others and the whole where anywhere the chain breaks down the whole may be affected.



All these things are large undertaking me thinks and not to be underestimated by us mere mortal users at least. A lot of water to flow under the bridge yet and a lot of obstacles in the way I guess with no quick or easy fix.



I am glad I am not a game engine developer.



If it does not impact adversely on the engine then I am sure this tool should be as good as segments and perhaps better with a bit of luck.



granada
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Posted: 15th Feb 2014 17:05
All looks good to me,I like that you will be able to use your own parts to build with.can't wait to try it out so I can make some parts to test it .



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rolfy
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Posted: 15th Feb 2014 22:48 Edited at: 16th Feb 2014 04:14
Now we are in my area of expertise I feel safe to throw my two cents in without coming across as simply bitching.



The tool as it is just now is very incomplete and I understand that, everything I say here is based on this and I may talk about it as it is but I will also talk about how it may develop.



The real test of this tool is what Artists will do with it, not in the sense of what is created using it, but in what assets will be made for it. I can see a lot of potential for it, it is far superior to segment building alone which I understand is quick and easy but lets face it very limited though I do still believe there is room for this method of building. Segments, or prefabs if you want to call it such now, seems to me are exactly as they were but now with the ability to snap them together whatever their scale, due to vertex snapping rather than grid. Of course this will also mean limiting assets to simpler shapes for use in this tool. There is no point in thinking of organic models being used with this, there is no advantage at all in placing a rock for example or a pile of rubble in this way versus simply placing it in editor in the usual way. I know this sounds stupid but if you think assets for this tool will expand beyond walls,roofs and simple shapes for building using it alone, then simply no if you want fuse boxes,pipes etc whats the advantage over entity placement to fixed position in the mesh?. But as I say prefabbing areas is where it's at with expanding on this.



The big advantage here is building prefabs from mesh's and storing them for use in other areas of the level. I wouldn't want to be trying to create an entire level with this using walls and floors, but the ability to import and build areas is really exciting and a real time saver for any developer. This should be expanded to selection of entity's in the top down editor and stored in the construction kit so outdoor areas, entire towns etc can be re-used and re-edited.



This tool is ideal for creating corridors and rooms, and your correct, I expect there will be screenshots of the massive outdoor structure created and posted with the comment 'my city I built' which won't show how bad it's lagging. Many users will create something using the broken down prefab parts at least once, then never use it this way again unless assets are well thought out and designed specifically for use. If a mesh building facade is imported then it won't work too well with floors, which don't match scale exactly and will lead to areas of Z-clashing,overhangs etc unless individual meshes can be scaled. Again if Artists create single models and don't have an actual theme and design which blends all assets together then it's going to be impossible to get much use out of it not to say frustrating.



This is where packs would be indispensable...something TGC don't want to deal with anymore preferring single assets in the store and something I don't want the extra work doing, particularly when it comes to component parts. If packs can be uploaded to the new store and administrated by the vendor themselves then I will be fine with that.



The problem with users will be that expectations will be too high that they can create their entire game using this alone, but it is as I say a huge leap being able to prefab small builds aside from rooms etc, this should be made a priority part of its development. As should the lighting system required to use it for indoor scenes.



The roller paint huds etc can go, they make this look like a toy and are completely unnecessary, probably using up resources better saved for actual developing, an icon will do fine.



To conclude I would be happy to create my models as component parts where a prefab can be un-grouped and parts re-textured,re-arranged removed or added to, which incidentally, will lead to more draw calls than a single texture model so should be used sparingly. Just expect these to cost a little more than the single mesh prop models.



There are advantages with single mesh models which can utilise the LOD system for instance but for areas you want added control over design this would work well. Anyone thinks I would create LOD for every single component part is deluded and obviously never did much modeling....joking of course

It would work well however if component removal from render was tied to distance/view via script (at least for outdoors where occlusion may not be effective) or uses the imposters system. Regardless, component parts should be lowest poly count possible anyway so LOD shouldn't even come into it in most cases. The ability to remove parts that are never seen at all would in fact be an advantage to the more savvy and thoughtful level designers who look to performance.



Here's something I was already working on that illustrates everything perfectly.











Aside from a single mesh model in the store it could be an editable prefab with all the parts being re-usable, more mileage for the buck right there. This is just one use I see for this tool and as it develops probably more will come, just drop the fluff so us grown ups feel like it's not aimed at 5 yr old's.



On my wish list for this would be import from modeler which has the parts pre-built or grouped and turns this into a prefab, which may be asking too much but would be an ideal time saver at my end.



NOTE: rolfy is not writing the Construction Kit (or the Rift Support, Object Importer or new LUA Engine system) and remains focused on models to the exclusion of all else (except forum posts of course). Rest assured all progress on these auxiliary modules are running in parallel to the main model making and are not distracting rolfy from what needs to be done
Jerry Tremble
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Posted: 16th Feb 2014 02:48
I gotta say so far I'm impressed with this tool, it's like segments on steroids! (I know that's cliché, but it fits) However I agree with all of the above comments. The gui does indeed make it look kinda like a toy. I like the vertex snapping, but for "free" placement would it be possible to have the option of adding structural components and placing them by the actual, desired coordinates (x,y,z or simply x and z if it's on the ground plane vs. okay it looks good from this side, orbit the camera, nudge it one way, orbit back, nudge it some more, orbit again, nudge, nudge, nudge)?
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LeeBamber
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Posted: 16th Feb 2014 04:12
Nice one rolfy - touche Rest assured the Construction Kit is not going to be a toy, it will be the single most liberating creation feature of the whole software, enabling you to create practically anything you want, as long as it's designed to be static When we get a little further on, I think it makes sense to include a new top community artists to provide some prefab parts to see how the modularity of the system works. The idea is that you can make your structures from anything, which you can imagine could lead to some very 'interesting' edifices.

Hogging the awesome since 1999
rolfy
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Posted: 16th Feb 2014 04:23 Edited at: 16th Feb 2014 04:24
Heh! didn't expect to be caught with that so soon



Yes I can see how this would work and how it will really open up creative builds for users. You could likely build a decent sized apocalyptic level with only the parts shown above, plus a few others, rubble piles,roads etc I have been working on, I have even been creating the terrain textures to go with it
0Alemar0
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Posted: 17th Feb 2014 19:34
hummmm I really love toys kkk... I think I can make a big party with this tool... I´m looking forward for this .

Thank you guys!
Teabone
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Posted: 17th Feb 2014 20:57 Edited at: 17th Feb 2014 21:26
Quote: "This is where packs would be indispensable...something TGC don't want to deal with anymore preferring single assets in the store and something I don't want the extra work doing, particularly when it comes to component parts. If packs can be uploaded to the new store and administrated by the vendor themselves then I will be fine with that."




You kind of can have model packs still in a sense. Since you can pack a zip file with many pieces and just up the price a bit. This way they would basically have a ton of floors, walls, pillars, ceilings and variations of one theme in one purchase. Though not sure if this is something TGC likes sellers doing?



Regarding the construction kit, I'm curious how doors and windows will punch into walls in the construction kit?



Also for maps I wish to be completely interior I can see myself using this tool. But for that I'd love an option to turn off the water. Believe we can already turn off skybox and set absolute flat terrain.



I also hope that in the basic editor we can have wall snapping like we did in FPSC. I haven't checked to see if we still do in Reloaded. This for light switches and paintings and etc for walls.



I gotta compliment the developer of the construction kit so far as it already appears easier to use than the editor in UT / UDK.



I made a map in it UT3 and had so much difficulties editing any interior pieces as you pretty much had to sculpt from a cube.







Quote: "The game designer/game maker should have the choice to enable or disable end game user features including level editing. Everyone should then be happy."




Agreed, I do not like this "feature". I personally hope its not in the final release of Reloaded. I don't think anyone would want their users editing their world. Otherwise its like your giving them the Reloaded engine for free.

xplosys
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Posted: 17th Feb 2014 22:18
Quote: "I don't think anyone would want their users editing their world. Otherwise its like your giving them the Reloaded engine for free."




I'm thinking that TGC quickly added the build function and end-user editing ability as a way for us to get them more exposure and backers. I could be wrong, but I don't think you'll see it in the final cut.



Brian.

If my post seems rude or stupid, don't be offended. It's just a failed attempt at humor.
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DVader
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Posted: 17th Feb 2014 22:24
This looks like it will be a great tool. Definitely a step in the right direction.



I see it as a way to get your indoor scenes designed up fairly quickly and easily. I wouldn't want to make an entire level out of these. I would have a mixture of standard buildings that we use now, and these where needed. Games do this sort of thing all the time, using in the main premade buildings and having more intricate interior designs on key buildings.



I definitely see this being really useful, if we could use scripting to utilize this sort of thing in game. You could then think about making a game where you can craft things as and when you get the resources to do it. I don't really mind the paint brush and such, it leads me to believe that TGC are hoping to add this sort of element in game. Only a good thing imo.

rolfy
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Posted: 18th Feb 2014 02:45 Edited at: 18th Feb 2014 04:12
Quote: ".You could then think about making a game where you can craft things as and when you get the resources to do it. I don't really mind the paint brush and such, it leads me to believe that TGC are hoping to add this sort of element in game. Only a good thing imo."


I get what your saying here and really we are starting to talk of editing in built levels rather than the construction kit itself. I can see how this is already a kind of gameplay, opens a lot of game ideas straight off when I saw it working this way. Moving things around or even simply to create your own structures with scripted events as a gamer,would certainly be a great puzzle game idea in a large scale world. Still. that's exactly how it comes across being in the construction kit, as a construction tool for actual game build it is not very professional for me. I wont have more fun using it because its got a hammer waving about, not at my age.



I simply feel that this kind of thing would be only for games and not the construction kit, Somehow I doubt TGC had a strategy of showing what would be possible or to give us ideas by putting the hands in the construction kit, it's more to do with the younger market really, which I think they are underestimating here if they continue the big button and big GUI approach.



To me it would feel immersed in a game world rather than design tool, more like modding levels, or worse, playing The Sims.



I think even the teenage market would find it off putting and no one would miss it, if it used a simple and small icon in the corner of screen to tell you what build mode your in. I want an uncluttered view when designing.



Teenagers want to be treated like adults more than adults do and thats the approach to take for aesthetics in this project. Unless TGC changed course and Reloaded is to be aimed at 6+ years. rather than 13+.

Worked a lot with that teen age group and they are, well,,,,very serious and deep about all things. You underestimate them at your peril



Make it a choice at the very least, to remove it easily and switch to a view I can use. Still, if it is left as default and the first thing a new user will notice, it's not going to help some folk to take it seriously. Just my opinion.
LeeBamber
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Posted: 19th Feb 2014 03:45
The Construction Kit will not be a toy. He repeats; not..a..toy Remember my 'most fundamental creation element of Reloaded' speech, well that's what it's gonna be. The hammer and blocks are programmer art. That is, art created to visualize core functionality during development, and NOT intended for final public consumption. Simon (the not Lee guy writing it) has a great vision for the module and you should trust him, he's a top coder and all round aficionado when it comes to scene building tools! It's gonna blow your socks off when finished! My three cents

Hogging the awesome since 1999
DVader
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Posted: 21st Feb 2014 02:18
Yeah, I wasn't saying the current graphics were good! Just I can see why they are included. I don't take much notice of them. Try to reimagine them as realistic looking tools that animate when you build something in game. More Everquest Landmark than a fps shooter, but much more to my liking! Obviously, Reloaded has a way to go to beat Landmark for visuals

You could help em out and make some decent models they can use The presentation of this tool certainly needs more polish. Not too bad for programmer art though! I'm sure you could work out something between yourselves.

rolfy
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Posted: 21st Feb 2014 02:24
Okay, I get it



I reckon it seemed a little elaborate for programmer art and so seemed to me the way it was heading.

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