I started this thread in response to this Q\A on Live Broadcast #18
Q> Decals working in GG Classic suppose to work in Max?
A> We may need to perform a conversation on any 'decal entities' from Classic as they rely on a shader that will not exist in MAX. We are aiming for good backwards compatibility and if decals prove to be an essential element to many Classic projects, we will find a way to keep them animating under the new graphics engine.

So thought it might be good to discuss our usage of aminations in Classic, (edit - and any features you would like to see in the engine)
- This thread is not intended to bag TGC for not having this functionality in Max (yet!)
- It is intended to give Lee and Team a good reason to do the hard yards in getting similar or even better functionality into Max.

So if you have anything to add please do so. Pics and videos may help the cause

So lets get to it then!

A Case for FX Shaders

Effect Scroll
The effect_scroll shader is such a versatile shader that can be used for many things.
For example, I use it to animate force fields, flowing substances, security tape banners, and other things. It is a simple way to make a static object come to life.

Decal Animate
This of course allows for more complex animations,
For example I use: it to animate computer screens, portals, waterfalls,
- decal_animate4 - - (an edited version that just slows it down) for animating computer screens.
- decal_animate8 - - for animating portals
- decal_animate64 - used for water falls

In my maps I use fx shaders a lot, it is a simple but effective way of getting life into a level. Now if the Team can come up with a way to get these working in Max, or perhaps an even better way of getting similar results - I think it would just make Max awesome!

Suggestions in this thread so far:
Customizable Dynamic Shader - OldFlak
Video Textures - Avenging Eagle
Decals - Specify frame rate and specify random frame start - AmenMoses

OldFlak....

Here is a video showing the use of fx shaders in GG Classic



The forcefields use scroll_effect, as do the window textures.
The inner world is not just rotaing but also uses the effect_scroll shader.
The Static warning banner is on the same texture as the flowing substance at the top of the world generator gizmo and also uses the effect_sroll shader.

The computer screens use an edited version of decal_animate4 (edited to slow it down).

Here be a simlar test level in Max.



Oviously the computer screens would need to use a different texture if not animated, but it was just a test to show how the level is lifeless by comparison.


Bottom line - Classic looks lacklustre, but has life. Max looks awesome but lifeless!


OldFlak....

My understanding is that shaders in MAX have to be built in rather than loaded on the fly (I may be wrong though) and that someone will need to recode the GG shaders to work in MAX.

So if this is correct then I would say that any stock shaders should be replaced (and hopefully improved) by an equivalent MAX shader.

Also one of the most powerful aspects of the GG particles system is that currently you can specify a shader effect on a per particle emitter basis, so any MAX shaders should I hope be able to be selectable for use by particle emitters and maybe some cool shader effects (like the additive shader) could be made available to really make them AAA quality.

I know the AGK particles system looks cool but does it really have the flexibility of the GG system? Can you manipulate all the shader variables in real time like you can with GG? Can you use any existing decal effect in a particle emitter like you can in GG? Can you control individual particle placement like you can in GG? (if the answer to that is yes then can someone please show me an example using the AGK particles that mimics my footprints example?)

I envisage that in future things like spark effects, flames, fountains etc will be offloaded onto the AGK system, especially where the effect is static like a candle flame or wall torch, but the existing particles system will still have an important place in situations where you need a much more dynamic effect or where the effect needs to be mapped onto a generic entity (like my bullet holes example).

I still have a bunch of improvements planned for the GG system, for example being able to specify that particles are linked to terrain or water surface or that particles can be mapped to the surface of a dynamic entity or that the 'on death' behaviour of a particle can be specified (useful for lightning effects for example), so the old dog has a lot of life left in it yet.

Absolutely yes, I want the animated decal system working in GGMax.

From the GG side, all maps that use shaders will not work in GGMax.
All the models in the store that include a shader will not work in GGMax, since they will not be compatible, therefore all the maps that include these models will simply not work in GGMax.

Integrating the new particles in GGMax, but not integrating the particle editor, doesn't make much sense to me.
I don't have the particle editor so I don't know how it works, but I prefer to edit the particle, having the map in front of it.

The GG particle system is quite functional and above all flexible, the particle system of the particle editor is amazing, but I would also like a demonstration of how it works in GGMax, not only to see a particle in a barrel but an explanation More extensive and precise, perhaps a broadcast dedicated to this topic only and with the participation of Preben, if this is possible, of course.

Thanks OldFlak for starting this important thread!

Glad my question got some attention!
I created many decals , some from animated gifs I had before (recently learned how to in GG) and static ones.
It was easy for me to do that. And I would love to see it back in MAX... VERY much. It would be a big lost IMO.
The level I am working on in GG Classic, will be specifically for GG Max VR. And I do make use of many decals now.


Exacly!


Yes!

Thanks!
Martin

I think people are worrying a little too much over this.

I'm assuming there will be decals in GGMax, it would be stupid not to have them in some form. Lee just has to work out the best way of doing it that works with the Wicked engine.

Because currently they work off of FX files, which Wicked does not support, the current decals won't work, but i'm pretty sure Wicked has a similar feature that just works using different file types, Lee just needs to work out a way to get the old decals to convert to the new system, just like he did with the old textures in the importer.

So best case scenario we can just add our old decals to Max and they will convert over, and worst case scenario we will have to recreate them in the new system.

Yeah it is not a worry thread

As Lee stated in Bordcast #15:


Hence the reason for this thread:


So if the team have an idea how popular they are used in current maps, it will give them some incentive to implement them in Max.
Perhaps (hopefully) they will come up with an even better way of doing similar thing in Max.

Think of this thread as a feature request - and the more people that report that they would like to have it, the better chance that the team will work on adding support for it.

OldFlak....

That doesn't say that we won't have decals, that just says they won't have the shaders we currently use for decals and we won't be able to use our own at the start. That does not say we won't have decals, and it does not say that Wicked does not have a way of handling decals. It's very likely they will be able to cover the basics with Wickeds default stuff, then once it's all put together they can start adding custom ones.

Yeah maybe since wicked ia here this time, a lot will be able to be done without TGC having to make it possible first? Not sure how open GG Max will be at the end of the day.

@Belidos
I not quite sure why you are against us trying to put a case forward to the team to implement this. No one is saying they will or will not add them to Max. Lee's latest comment as quoted at the start of the thread suggests they are likely to go down some kind of conversion route.

This thread is not to debate whether or not the Team will add decals - it is about giving some incentive to do so.

Really looking for positive input here, not cluttering the thread with, "they said this or that, but it doesn't mean this or that"..

OldFlak....

I'm not against anything it's just that the way people are acting is as if they've told us were definitely not getting decals and we have the make a stand to get them added

What would be cool if it is doable is a dynamic shader that we could edit in the properties panel.
- Set the number of frames the shader will use: 8, 16, 64 etc
- Set the speed at which they animate

OldFlak....

Yes please add them (No brainier really ) brings everything to life

Dave

I'm not as technical as alot of the chaps on here, but without the use of decals/rx shaders my levels are lifeless. Magical/fantasy/medieval tend to be heavily dependant on these to create atmosphere relatively inexpensively and I for one would feel I couldn't finish my project without them or again some for of equivalent. Jusf my 2 pence worth.

I'm pretty sure I came across this feature when I was toying around with Wicked itself. So if it's in there, it shouldn't be difficult to trickle that functionality down into MAX.

Let's also not overlook video textures. Decals are great, but at a certain point you just can't squeeze enough frames at a decent resolution into one atlas to be viable. FPSC had video textures, I always felt GG should have them too.

AE

Just to make it clear after a chat last week with lee with regards to decals it still hasn't been implemented, it will however be looked at some point when every thing else is done. I have sent some research and information with regards to decals, especially screen space decals., but remains to be seen what will be done in this regard.It isn't like we won't have decals or animated decals for that matter, just that no work has been done on it yet

Exactly what i have been trying to say, thanks for clarification Wiz.

@wizard of id thanks for the constructive input there - appreciated.

@Belidos this thread is not about getting or not getting this feature - it is about incentive for the Team to add it asap. Since you use Unity are there perhaps any features they have that would be interesting info for Lee and Team.

OldFlak....

Absolutely hundreds of things I'd like added, but they need to get the core basics working before thinking about that sort of thing.

Curious, but why ASAP? MAX is barely alpha and what's there is broken. Why are decals, as important as they are, a priority?

Getting it to run for more than a few minutes would be nice.

Getting it to run without 100% CPU spikes and stutters would be even nicer.

Yeah, not a priority, just need to be there for the 'release' whenever that is to be.

Since TGC are going for backward compatibility, if it isn't there when they release V1 (or whatever they call it) it will break a lot of maps.

Not sure if it is good practice or not, but it has been said that they will add all the bits then fine tune - so decals may as well be in there early as possible.

Waiting till 'when every thing else is done' could be years

OldFlak....

@OldFlak : Thanks for creating this thread, and a good topic of conversation. I can confirm I am not going to try and get old FX shaders working in MAX, but your need to have the effects you describe I think falls under the backwards compatibility minimum so you can continue your project. As has been suggested, I think the way forward is adding some additional functionality to the MAX shader system to accommodate the effects you list, specifically:

- Set the number of frames the shader will use: 8, 16, 64 etc (that is 2x2, 4x2, 4x4, etc)
- Set the speed at which they animate (seconds to complete a full sequence, 1ms minimum duration)

I have made a new task which will ensure I look to add this to you can easily set up an entity to exhibit the above behaviour without needing to resort to shader coding and let me know if there are other effects that could only be done with custom shaders and we will see if we can inject those into the MAX shader as well.

Thanks Lee - awesome news!
- As far as other effects Scroll Texture is very useful too.
Make Max Great


For my project animated decals are core basics - every level uses them
Start a thread and ask for something you would like to see in the engine - you never know it may get added to the list of todo's

Don't forget Lee and team want to make Max really shine - if you don't ask it may never happen...

OldFlak....

In the particles system (the classic one) I changed it to allow any square sprite sheet to be used up to 64x64, i.e. 4096 frames.

For decals as well as specifying the frame rate it would be a good idea to be able to specify a random frame start so that all the decals on screen don't synchronise (which looks really tacky) but for backwards compatibility have that default to off as existing projects may actually rely on that!

Waterfalls, foam, rivers (on hill level), video textures, lava, fire, flames (candle, torch, etc), sci-fi panels, signs, etc.
Most of them would work with the same shader such as (decaanimate4.fx does) but with 2 or 3 settings such as frames qty, speed, and some start delay, as amen pointed above.

Hi hope I'm not to late but the as OldFlak said .scroll and also the .wave shader.