Well put!!!!

You did make your self very clear and personally I do understand your frustration and that you are very disappointed. I am also disappointed and many others too but Lee was not careful and in the past few years he did say a lot of things and everyone was hoping and expecting different things, nobody is on the same page here and it did not and do not help Lee. I have never seen such a fragmented community as this one in my whole life and the fact this community is made out of kids, elders, coders, no coders, artists who don't even want to make games just art and people can not do any art must got something to do with this. Everybody want something different and Lee had to make his choices that obviously did not make everyone happy. How could be?

What is important to realise here is that Lee is a human who did make mistakes and miscalculations and if we hold him account for everything he said and did and didn't do, a Slave would be a better title for him than a CEO and lead developer. He was giving away years of hard work and thousands of pounds worth of assets for the price of a fish and chips with no restrictions, we are free to use any GG assets anywhere. Of course why would you care and I don't expect you, the bottom line is, GG did not deliver on your expectations. Many people feel this way.

As I mentioned I am also disappointed and I call GameGuru a different product because it did change focus. Reloaded is meant to be an FPS game maker, nothing more than that and the only thing I was hoping and expecting is better graphics, better AI, terrain, cool looking water, lights, shadows maybe some weather effects and Lee was hoping, by building on top of FPSC X9 and using the already existing DBP plugins he is going to be able to deliver this quickly. But this is not how it went. As most DBP plugins was owned and developed by 3rd party, Lee had to contact the developers and get permission to use them in GG and may even include them by getting the source and obviously he did not get the permission for some plugins and so he was not able to implement that feature. Then there was a huge miscalculation with performance. Because Lee did have an in-house version of DBP that was a lot faster, he was hoping he is going to be able to improve the performance of FPSC by using it and for better graphics he was only expecting to write some new shaders and job done. But it was not how things went and he had to develop an entirely new engine and migrate from DBP to C++ which was unexpected. But it was still not enough and the visual improvements the new shaders added did not justify the extremely poor performance people was getting with high-end cards. So then he begin to wrote a new engine and released it as GameGuru "the easy game maker". It was no longer focusing on FPS but easy game making in general. So no, this is no longer FPSC:Reloaded. It is not simply a name change, it is a change in focus and this is an other mistake Lee did.
The third mistake was the voting board that took GameGuru even further away from the original plans of FPSC:Reloaded.

To be honest I don't know what Lee was promising for GameGuru because after not getting the performance I was hoping and because GameGuru take the project in to a different direction I was quit GameGuru. Every time there was a new release, I did have a look see if it runs any better, it did not and I just moved on, did not care.

The bottom line is, if you truly believe that GameGuru is Reloaded then we have everything Lee promised for Reloaded.
Better graphics
More powerful scripting
Better performance
Better AI
Terrain

This is what Reloaded was all about, it was delivered years late and could be still better but we have it, everything else such as the EBE, Character creator, new PBR engine and everything Lee mentioned after the release of GameGuru should have been added as DLC or sold as a new product but we did get everything for free so far. So asking for a little cash this time for the next release is not much of a big deal but Lee being a human he just did make one more mistake. He did promised to implement in to GG classic everything he was promised originally and people jumped on him and make him responsible for every single word he was posting and saying in videos.

You can't honestly expect him to develop a product for years for the price of a coffee because this is how cheap GameGuru is now and to implement everything for free he ever mentioned. Development cost money, it is time to move on and accept TGC need to change to a different business model. Selling a product once and give away free updates forever is not sustainable. TGC need more consistent income and it is time to charge money more often for new releases and this new era begins with Max. and Lee should really stop making promises and we need a roadmap and as far promises go we got everything was promised for Reloaded, maybe not as good as it was told to be and it took 10 times more time, but we got it.

End of story, time to move on and choose if you stay on the boat or leave.
One thing I am hoping now is that if TGC release a new paid version (with new features) annually, it is going to help to bring the product that everyone is waiting for and nobody is going to be forced to pay. If you like the next release, you can buy it if you don't, you can skip it and wait for the next one.
This time is no different, if you don't like what Max has to offer than you can skip it and wait for the next one.

Very important to remember that development cost money and ideally we should paying for every single new feature on top of the base product one way or an other.
Unity, Unreal and Godot ruined the gaming industry by giving away so much for free make it really difficult for companies like TGC to operate. Small companies like TGC can not afford what Unity, Unreal and Godot do because they don't have the resources. YoyoGames tried it, they released a free version of GMS2 some time ago but then they revoked all free licenses because they realised it is not working for them and they put the prices up of GMS2 for each platform. Scirra tried it with Construct 2, they were doing what TGC did until now and asked for money only once and then give away free updates but small companies can not sustain this model and Scirra changed too and made Construct 3 subscription based. Clickteam Fusion same story. These companies did get lot of hate from their community for what they done but it is something that need to be done, TGC is no exception.
GameGuru and AGK begin to release a paid version annually and Studio and Max is the debut of this new era.
Try to accept it because this is the only way forward for TGC.

Hence why said it. I am pretty sure if people remember far back enough, I was probably the biggest complainer in the community during the time of that branding transition. About how a name change doesn't actually change the core product. But now, i am accepting the fact that if a name changes, it means nothing of the past matters in correlation. Think dozens and dozens of people here have hammered me to death for thinking any different So I'll just accept it and move on.

The way I see things now, is they are the way they are, there is business, ethics, community, expectation... all rolled into one. I try not to now let it all get to my head anymore. It really affected me in a negative way, taking all here too seriously and making it sort of run my life even. I now consider GG my $170 dollar hobby. When I pledged, I pledged to fund in to the future of what I at the time believed in. The DLC's bonuses I got out of that, Infact already owned from the FPSC days of which I also bought. So my overpay was to support what I truly believed in at the time. I no longer feel anything is owed to me. True or not. I'd rather not go into my spiral rants and spills of anxiety again. I just accept things as is. I have far too many other options out there if/when things ever got that bad or I just gave up or stopped believing in all this. I also should thank you for encouraging me to at least think out of this box to open up other tools and see that my indie dev world doesn't have to only exist here. It feels good to know I have options and I'm not tied down anymore.

I am supporting GG for the community that's behind it and for the great projects I see being made with it. If that community no longer existed I dont think I'd still be around here.

like probably 90% of us

GG Max I believe will be radically different, with the 64bit inclusion especially, this will not be a re-hash of old stuff. Looking forward to April.

Then it is time to plan the future, be practical and consistent.
If the intention is to keep GameGuru updated regularly, then it is time for a solid roadmap, published and discussed in your own thread, and leave this thread to talk about the promotional video.

I will not go into what could have been and was not, or promised and not fulfilled, although I think it is legitimate to feel upset, irritated and frustrated by it, we have all paid for it.

I personally prefer to be practical, things are as they are and many of them have no solution, so it is time to chart a course, because this ship is drifting.

Right now some users most likely need to draw within our mind the real future of Gameuru, this could help with the uncertainty that is generating doubts, doubts generating frustration, and frustration, well I think that is already evident.

We just want to know that there is something else after the bug free operation, and if so, what is it?
But explained in a thread and in depth.
For me personally it is not about quantity, I prefer few features and that they are fully functional.

I honestly think that as a community and as Gameguru users we have been patient enough, but GG needs a little more exclusive attention.

And no, I do not miss the fact that everything has a price, and this is not an exception, so propose a financing plan that allows you to work on GameGuru exclusively, well 80%

For my part I bought GGMax to contribute once more to the cause, it is my way of being consistent.

Mr Lee, I wonder if you could create a clone of GGMax and migrate it to Gameguru, so we would have GG 64bits.

i think that GG development needs to be financed and i'll be happy to pay very year for a 20/25 bucks upgrade taht include new features and so on.. this ways GG can be developed with constant effort and with complete features..

Hi Lee,
Look at this - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fTbtWTEzHfg
This was posted by Rick in 2012 and shows what in his words "Love to develop if we hit the stretch goals", this was for FPSC Reloaded and I am sure you had enough financing and backing to get this done and in GG but it did not happen, this is an example of why people are a little miffed off with promises and no delivery. I do think if you do deliver you will get the backing, but the product really has to come first rather than a begging bowl to get it created.....again.

Just thought I would show this so you knew why some of the posts seem a bit unresponsive to the GGMAX future product.

All the best with it!

I accept that we need to put everything that was or was not said would be implemented in the past now,
but as a few have stated here moving forward a correct and proper road map of developments for both
GG-classic and Now GG-Max is needed.

Has Lee has stated he ran off at the mouth sometimes too much of what 'Might-be' or 'Will-be- coming
in the future, lets face it we have all done it ourselves at some point, and Might-be & Will-be coming
are two very different things.

Moving forward I agree for us all, want what ever engine you with to support and use now GG-Classic
or the NEW beast on the block GG-Max then paying for upgrades either individually to have them implemented
something along these lines is the way forward.

I know this might not sit well with some but there is an old saying that's stands true, ''You have to pay for
what you want the way you want it'', so if you want the GG-classic engine support that / if you want the
Newboy GG-max then support that, has it has been pointed out now they will be two different software.

And to always remember you have a choice its not an obligation to Buy (£) or Not to Buy (£) support the engine you want
but only if the upgrades that are officially announced in a official announcement thread with full details of what you get
for the upgraded payment.

But the very first step before asking for paying for upgrades must be a 'Working BUG-FREE Engine' paying for upgrades
to an engine that has lots of issues is just going to end in failure just as FPSC Classic / FPSCX10 / FPSC Reloaded & unless
GG-Classic gets rid of all its bugs then its pointless. One thing is certain people will only be happy paying for stuff they
buy that works as it should, tell me i'm wrong a dare you because would you keep a brand new car if it had a faulty engine?
erm NOPE i'm guessing... so learn one lesson fix the engine and then go down the upgrades path before anything else.

I have per ordered GG-Max but i personally will see how things go and unless I see real change in what ever engine
I myself will only support it if it is BUG FREE first before paying anymore towards their developments and thats
my personal choice as is yours.

Extra Funds needed for gaffer tape for Lee's mouth to hold him back in future.... you have been warned!!!

Personally, I'm not angry. Only disappointed because for the second time, I invested in a game engine I can use, but it’s not bug free and TGC decided to move for a new one, without finishing the current one. Again. I’m not even much interested in the “promises”. I won’t use many of them. But the program itself should work.
It’s going to be free of bugs. Good. Very good indeed. But it should first be free of bugs, and then the new version should be announced. As I said in the other topic, vegas just works, so they can release a new version every year. Everyone is talking about roadmaps, so most important to future roadmaps: MAKE-IT-WORK! And then release a new version. Every year. Every 6 months. And people will buy it. Because it works. That’s what sells products: they work. That’s what makes good ratings on steam. That’s what allows lots of good games, and that will attract more clients to purchase!
And, for every new version, new stuff added. VR. 64Bits. Etc... Or do you think Unreal, Unity, Frostbite, always had the same options from the start? No. Every version brought some new options, some improvements. But every version worked.
So, roadmap 1- Make it work. 2 –Don’t try to put everything in it (otherwise you’ll lose time and resources and will have a hard time to make them all work), especially if you intend to do versions every year.

Edit: To make it 100% clear: the problem is not paying, but paying over and over again for something that will never work and then to have a new version created that won't work. I would pay for a new version that works. But I've already paid two that didn't. Don't want to pay for MAX, and 6 or 7 years from now, to pay for a new one, because MAX won't work.

@Lee.

No Lee, you are *not* 'just a developer'. You are the CEO of a software company. That is your creation. Not FPSC, not GG, not AGK.
Making certain that the company you created and managed down the years continues to exist is - I would imagine - *the* most important consideration of your professional life.

I can also imagine that you would do whatever it takes to keep the company afloat - including rebranding the same product a half-dozen times in order to generate revenue, (I'm reminded of the automative industry - new shell, new paint job - same old 4 wheels and an engine - but we keep buying 'em).

I can understand that. I don't like it, but must ask myself how far would *I* go to preserve what I have worked years to build?

I doubt that my - or anybody else's - complaints are likely to alter your primary motivation.

So everyone let's all give up beating up on Lee - it won't change his perspective and the anger we're feeling will not be assuaged. It'll just raise your blood pressure.
As per the cliched TV quote, (if you are really riled about it) - 'Don't get angry. Get even'. Don't buy GGMax.

Well; I think everyone that's followed the reveal of MAX since day one, has had their say (and then some....and then some more....). Much of what is being said is constructive, and shows that many here are very passionate about TGC's Products and Game Development as a whole. I think we ALL want the best for TGC and their products...as well as our own works.

What I'm seeing now, is much of the same statements/arguments/observations being regurgitated ad nauseam. Often by the same Community Members. But I'm also starting to see a volatile vibe as well. Lee has made a rather large effort to address any and all questions and concerns about the future of GameGuru and the beginnings of MAX. He's repeated himself in many, many cases; most of which were answering questions that can be found by simply reading (or re-reading for comprehension) his initial, 8-day old, post here: https://forum.game-guru.com/thread/221517#msg2625764

Lee has also taken the unprecedented step of engaging with any and all comers on Discord...live. I'm sure he intends to continue that. Lee has also apologized, fallen on his sword, lifted himself back up...and fallen on it again. The Game Creators is, and always has been, a business. To my knowledge, no business can run on bubblegum and good wishes. From time to time, that means an infusion of capital. The amount of money we're talking about here, is a trip to a fast-food restaurant for 2. Is it really worth getting worked up that much?

Yes; I wish that GameGuru would do what I want it to do, when I want it to do it. But often times, it's down to my inept abilities...and my inability to find the help I need. That goes for Unity, UDK, GoDot, GameMaker, Construct, Leadwerks, RPGMaker, [insert your favorite dev tool here] and any other piece of Kit....bar none.

For those that are insisting on a completely and totally "bug-free" GameGuru, before TGC writes one line of code for MAX; sorry to disappoint you. That's not how things work. I know of NO program/kit/app that is totally "bug-free". The only program, of relevance to me, that I know of that continues to give unpaid upgrades...is ZBrush. That has obviously been a successful model for them.

As has been eluded to, and posted; no one here is required to purchase MAX....no one. GameGuru will continue to get bugs fixed and set-in-stone items added (and then bug-fixed), for the foreseeable future. This has been said, in print, by Lee....several times, in several forms. Lee has also said that MAX may not be for you and your development(s). There are other Game Development solutions out there...quite a few of them, that may suite you better. I encourage you to explore them, and see if they fit your needs and your abilities.

Having said all this, we are quite done with the continued bashing of TGC and the Moderating Team. For those who continue to post that they're leaving, then magically find their way back; you're very welcome to hang out and see what's happening (even interact with everyone). What you're NOT welcome to do, is continue to harass and degrade Staff and Members here. If you have any questions about that; let me refer you to a portion of what you agreed to, when signing up to this Community:



You can find the AUP in its entirety here: https://forum.game-guru.com/aup

I, and others in the Moderating Team, will be watching these Boards...as well as the Steam Boards (and now Discord). Any Member who wishes to continue down the path they are currently on, that violates the AUP, will be dealt with. Thanks for your time.

Just to be clear - I have worked my way through my initial negative reaction to the news of GG Max, have compared the cost of the entertainment afforded by gg compared - say - to the enterainment provided by drinking beer, (both things tend to happen at the same time anyway), have considered everything else in my life that I pay for over and over - how much it costs me to keep my 20 year old car on the road, (which I use for many hours fewer than I spend piddling about in GG and other software).
I spend more on beer in a month than the cost of GG and all the dlc - more on beer in a week than the pre-order price of GG Max.

In the end - angst over - it's a no brainer.

My last post KeithC, was intended to introduce a different perspective on what seems to have become a bickering match about who said what and what it meant.

@ Benjiboy. The post was for whoever it pertains to, not naming anyone in particular (though a few have shined through). I also agree, it is (or should be) a no-brainer.

KiethC agreed m8 I did initially think why were these things not in GG then remembered that when a new "feature" was proposed loads of people we're saying "take my money" and prepared to put credits into that. ON reflection GG max is a pittance tbh in comparison to the individual features we wanted cost wise. Lee there is no need to apologise for wanting your engine to be better we do too and we still do support you in your ventures. So time to forget all the bitching and build a better engine so GGMax it is.
P.s just as a note if you had said hey guys I'm going to introduce say multiplayer or whatever who's going to chuck some money at it I bet loads would have so I think it was about maybe the rebranding more than the features, not that it really matters just the approach was maybe an issue. "Ho hum said pooo" lets all just focus on helping TGC make a better product and stop worrying about making GG better time is better spent on GG max imho so just buy it and lets move forward.

Yep, do the bug fix like you planned.

Then go build MAX - just make it awesome....

For the record - I say again - MAX is too cheap

OldFlak....

yeah m8 I agree @ OldFlak it is way too cheap tbh if you actually can bang out these features at least double the price tag and make it worth while for the guys that are doing the work. I had well worths my moneys worth out off GG 5k hours or sommat stupid and I really did have some fun with it.

Lee,

Will it be possible to code underwater behavior in Lua (or Python - whichever scripting language GG Max will use)? Will we be able to use shaders from other engines or 3rd party?

If our assets have swimming animations, can we code that into our GG Max games?

All I am looking for is to change the color of the water, possibly add a full screen shader to make it shimmer a bit and if I really had my way, add some underwater caustics to the terrain on the bottom as well as have the sun/moon show through the water with a bit of refraction.

If that can be coded, I can code it.

Also, I have given you suggestions/links for voxel terrain a la No Man's Sky - Godot is using it and it's really quite powerful. It can be useful to make caves, underground, holes, cliffs, overhangs, etc. It uses twin marching cubes and there is an available c++ version that seems to be open source and available for inclusion. It uses heightmaps so creating stamps and terrains is super simple and it would be possible to make seamless terrains (endless) simply by auto creating said heightmaps in all directions. The c++ library takes care of sculpting, adding terrain and subtracting it. Depending on the chunkiness 'variable'. you can go from Minecraft looking terrain with a low chunky value to totally smooth terrain with a higher value. It has LOD that seems to be automatic. IMHO, this is the BEST possibility for GG Max terrain and would allow non-coders to create everything from underground and open world games to flight games. Driving games would be amazing, too.

Another area I would like to be able to code is the skies. We need layered, possibly volumetric, skies. Having clouds moving in various layer with parallax would give tons of realism consistent with today's best engines.

Also, if you are going to add weather effects, please make them look more realistic than the 1st video you sent out. Shiny ground with puddles/ripples and on-screen water streaking down would go a long way toward real looking rain or snow. Lightning with thunder could be a lighting effect with a fractal pattern for the actual lightning and a panel slider could speed up/slow down the effect or add or reduce severity of the storm.

Also, adding a tornado effect would also be insanely cool - which is a particle effect with some kind of circular rotation.

Mike

Game Guru is simply the easiest game maker, especially in the 3D realm, to use. If you are willing to learn a little lua, purchase from the store for assets at a good price, or make your own. Game Guru is fantastic, a few little quirks and bugs are still in it but, its solid and very usable.

The only real serious thing I can see is the standalone creation, it works, but a little unreliably sometimes. I hope this will be better in GG Max.

Hats off to Lee and his team for the advance ideas and thoughts on this and now GG max will be 64bit the memory problems will be gone. New terrain system, better lighting and shadowing. Bring it on Lee.

This remains to be seen, yes we can use all the memory available, but how much system memory and memory on the graka will the player of your game have? and can he run a 64bit game?

Most games are now mostly 64bit, I don't know anyone with a 32bit version of Windows 10 on there machines. So 64bit only is a good move on Lees part.

Obviously if you sell your game you put your minimum specs .. 64bit would be a natural requirement in them.
Just like Max will have 64bit in the minimum specs.

Indeed, was thinking out loud before googling, it indeed seems that most systems are now 64 bit.

It is obvious that we now live in the 64-bit world, and it would be a mistake not to get on the train.
However, before GG creates the .exe file (if any), it could ask the developer if he is focusing the game on a 32-bit, or 64-bit system, or both.
But this requires a great job, besides that the quality of the graphics would probably not be the same, some features would not be as functional, and some others might have to be silenced.
I think it wouldn't be worth it, so better think of 64 bits.

More likely will be the base requirement of GTX960 that cause issues with expected widespread use of MAX with all bells and whistles turned on?

I don’t know user stats, maybe a lot of rigs are way beyond that now?

Cheers.

I only have an Asus Strix GTX970 in my main PC and it seems to run all games I throw at it fine. No lag or stuttering even on 1920x1080......

You would be amazed the hardware some people suffer with. I'd still stick to that sort of spec though, as time marches on fast. When ray tracing becomes more prevalent (which it will now the new console gen will support it), older tech will start to look a bit dated. Ray tracing will also make it way easier for realistic scenes as it uses way less smoke and mirrors and just works Support for that would be awesome, but useless to most of us at this point; RTX cards are ridiculous prices.

seems that about 45% of people on Steam have a Gtx 960 video card or better...

https://store.steampowered.com/hwsurvey/videocard/

Why not also make the jump to DX12 since over 90% seems to have that capacity also.

UNIRD12B

Well the last PC i "decommissioned" had a 960 in it, so if i have better then most people will



I had the Asus Strix GTX960, they're awesome cards, although you need to look higher when comparing them, all the Strix range are base overclocked, the 970 you have is closer to a 980 than a 970

GTX960? Oh dear. I think I'm going to have to sell my GGMax Steam key.

Unless you have a laptop, I'm sure you could probably get a 1050 for a reasonable price which should run it I would imagine. Perhaps a cheap secondhand 960?

I have a Laptop with RTX2080... thanx to Alienware.
Ok, it was not cheap. But it works so damn great. Even the temperatures are low when gaming.

GTX 1080 here, hope I meet atleast the min requerimets.

All of my dev machines have at least a 1050 GTX or Ti or better. My best machines have a 1080Ti and my MSI Domintor has a GTX 980 desktop card with a lot of vRam. I know my machines are above many system specs but they are not the highest any longer. Most of my machines are 2 years old or older.

I have no problems playing any games on any of them.

Mike

I'll start by saying I shouldn't have posted the above - I think I might have been drunk - but - my MSi laptop, (GTX940M) which is okay to build with, no use for playing any but the simplest of scenarios, with all the vegetation, shadows etc. set to minimum won't run GGM. My i3 with Intel HD5000 which is somewhat more capable than the MSI won't be able to run it either.

Forunately Aldi had a Medion i5 9400 with RTX2060 on special offer a while ago and I invested.

Trouble is it lives in the office, (read junk-room) - not my favourite work space, (read packed floor to ceiling with the detritus of all my other hobbies).
It brings back memories of my first proper IT job as sys prog at Manchester Uni Computer centre - 4 white walls 9' apart, floor to ceiling shelves filled with manuals, no window, just enough space behind my chair to be able to get to and from my desk - seeing daylight once a day at lunchtime when I could escape to one of the local pubs for a beer and sarnie.

DX12 & 64bit would be great

Lees response on another DX12 question..

Not bothered by DX12. Not really bothered by DX11 if it comes to it.
If I think of all the games that got great reviews because of their graphics and turned out to be sludge play/story-wise I reckon it's just a distraction - except to those who want photo-realism.
Consider all the games that are being made these days using side-scrolling pixel graphics - straight out of the 80's and 90's before DX was barely thought of.
Story shares the throne with playability, and for a games making package - to my mind - good tools for story telling are paramount.

@Benjiboy perfect excuse to have a clear out of your office area then

I might put up a couple of (shameful) photos so you can see just what that would entail Belidos. Plus, what comes out of there has to go somewhere else - can't bin it - I might want it.

@benjiboy Sounds like a normal workplace to me. I do tidy it on the rare occasion though. Uncanny how it gets untidy so fast I have seven HDD's stacked up on the corner of my desk, plus at least three more in a they might work pile, lol. That's the tidy stuff

DX11 is fine. Seen plenty of impressive DX11 stuff. If GG could get anywhere near any of the DX11 examples it would be sorted. No expert by any means, not sure what DX12 brings to the party. I don't think GG has used all the extra's from DX11 as yet.
@Belidos. You say clear out, I dare say re-arrange

Have tidied - a bit. All the poop's behind me now so I can ignore it. Still - doesn't really matter I gues 'till April. . .

Dear friends !
(I honestly went over a dozen variants (including colleagues, fans and tovarischey), and came to the conclusion that this is the best)

In general, here on githab i write different things about GG Max...
May I ask you to express your opinion on these issues ? (screen resolution, map size, perfomance vs nice, keys reassigment)
https://github.com/TheGameCreators/GameGuruRepo/issues/701
I apologize if this looks like a little lobbying (not sure if the term is completely right, but similar )

...Probably in vain I added a whole paragraph about performance? It looks weird ... probably..
But I added, because the main thing is not a super-duper graphics (still do not compete with the Unreal) most importantly a stable high speed with a modest gfx. Imho. (In no case I do not want to hurt anyone, moreover, I believe that the graphics of the GG are almost sufficient to create a beautiful world).

If existing GameGuru users have to pay for GG Max I must say I feel a bit cheated. I became a Gold Pledger because, originally, Gold Pledgers were the only ones allowed to sell their games. Then that rule was dropped.

I, like many others, have been patiently waiting for years for GameGuru to reach fruition. Then, just the other day, I read something about this GameGuru Max. I was very surprised. I was under the impression all resources were being spread thinly enough just to bring GameGuru up to standard. Of course, I assumed (not unreasonably) that either the standard GameGuru would just evolve into GameGuru Max or that existing users would at least get it free.

It seems to me GameGuru Max is exactly what GameGuru always promised to become. I don't understand why there needs to be a different app unless it a money grab.

Remember the days of the feature voting board? That had hundreds of features listed. I thought we were voting, on the whole, not for whether a feature would be implemented but for what level of priority it would receive. It's a shame I don't have a screenshot of the voting board.

If you won't reconsider giving us it for free, don't we at least deserve a hefty discount?

First of all, GameGuru is still being worked on and updated. Lee has said, numerous times, that any features promised for GameGuru will be implemented into GameGuru.

Secondly, if you want a hefty discount for MAX, then get it now at 50% off. Else, wait for some sale offered after it's release. GameGuru MAX is not an update to GameGuru, but a different product featuring an updated UI, a new terrain system, a new rendering system, 64-bit, and a dynamic LUA system (part of the UI). These features go beyond GameGuru and are intended for those who want to develop game for more modern systems.

So, you have a choice - you can stay with GameGuru (which will become known as GameGuru Classic) and get the fixes and updates for it or you can get GameGuru MAX if you want a more modern approach. As far as Classic, Lee has stated that the entire month of March is set aside to squash bugs in GameGuru. So, I would expect a major update at the end of March or beginning of April.

There was a comment somewhere along the lines of tattooing my forehead with "GameGuru Classic will continue to be supported", primarily so I can headbutt the screen every time I need to say it again Still, I can understand why some users don't want to read 8 hours of answers from the main MAX announcement thread, it's a marathon that one!

Oh you don't need that we all remember it well.
Ironically I think the voting board was voted off.

Hi All, Betrayer here. I just got an email from Julian, but moving it here so we can have one conversation. Right now I have two identical ones going on, one by email and one here. Best to move it here so everyone can benefit from the answers:

From Julian, a long time supporter of GameGuru: "My issue is not with whether support for GG will continue. You have taken GameGuru, developed it quite nicely, adding features we have been waiting patiently for years, then you slapped a new name on it so you could treat it as a different product with its own price tag. I never expected you to betray you backers like this."

I know I've answered a version of this statement many different ways in the MAX thread, but I just wanted to get it out of my inbox and in a thread I know Julian is following. Do any other backers feel betrayed?

With the best will in the world I don't think you could upgrade GG to what the first release of Max would be without losing thousands of customers that could no longer run it. ( Then you would see some real complaints )

Its not like you dropped GG … So for me its just another choice which I often get with software I use that has free updates and paid upgrades every 18 months or so ... I either use what i have or upgrade if i want to .. They don't continue to support my old though which is not the case here so its a thumbs up for that.

I can't speak for backers, but i'm inclined to think that so many purchasers might have thrown more money at TGC than backers did through purchasing asset packs and GG of course.

I think that we should be reasonable here, no business is going to survive by selling a product for $20 and then upgrade it for years with added functions for free.
We have seen GG evolve over the last few years and despite all the goodies and graphical bling bling, it is faster now than the early versions.

I've personally never understood the votingboard, it's nice to vote for a feature, but for a business it is more realistic to sell additional functionallity packs for a base engine.
We simply can't expect to get all kinds of addons for a one time payment of $20 or even $200 excluding the assetpacks.