Product Chat / Memory management in game guru?

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nuncio
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Posted: 12th Apr 2015 18:53
hi there!
today i gave three standalone levels i created to a friend to play. although the feedback was positive i was a little disappointed with the memeory managemant or how is it called:
when i start my level and play it it's not running good, not fluently, sometimes like a slideshow. in my opinion it's completely playable and not so bad but i thought it's because of my machine settings (you can see inmy signature) that the game sometimes is a little slow.
my friend has a much better machine than my with the newest geforce and at least the double ram i have. although the game was loading much faster it was the same speed i had on my machine. i want to say, i saw no improvement to my machine on this much better pc.
i have some games that look much more graphic than the levels i made and the run much easier on my machine. is this a game guru problem and can there be some help in the future?
my friend said the game (and the map editor) are quite good but it's sad that it's not running so stable.
i have to say that in one level iused many entities.
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smallg
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Posted: 12th Apr 2015 19:32
GG uses only 1 core of cpu, most pc's use multiple cores to achieve faster speeds but 1 core of those is still running slow (generally) therefore a newer pc wont technically run GG any faster yet
i.e. if you have 4 cores running at 1ghz this gives you an "effective" speed of 4ghz ( 1ghz + 1ghz + 1ghz + 1ghz = 4ghz) but if you only get to use 1 of those cores you are running at 1ghz.

the better graphics card might be helping improve graphics a little bit but - as any gamer will tell you - your pc is always held back by the bottleneck elsewhere (in this case the CPU)
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MooKai
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Posted: 13th Apr 2015 09:00 Edited at: 13th Apr 2015 09:22
Same problem I have with my lovely "Flight Simulator X" you can have a monster PC with 4, 6, 8 cores and a hi end GPU. But the flight sim only uses 1 core of the CPU... And ignores the nice features of the gtx970... Ok, the flight sim is from 2006. But it's the same problem, only 1 core is used and the GPU has no effect, coz the most work is done by the CPU not the GPU.

Both are 32bit apps and run with dx9.
For the flight sim there will be no upgrade.
For GG I hope someday we will see a nice 64bit version with dx11/12 support
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3com
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Posted: 13th Apr 2015 20:43
I'm running into this memory issue , while I'm working on forest level, for the comp.
A bunch of tres and diverse veg means a lot of memory waste, so my level goes so slowwwwwwwwwwly, and the player looks like floating when walking.

I know the trees are a great mem waste, but what is a forest, without trees and veg.

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Teabone
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Posted: 13th Apr 2015 20:52
Some of the trees slow down the game a lot I noticed. I can't recall which one exactly does the most memory drain. All I recall is it was a large animated tree with quite a number of polys. It contains no LODs that I can see.

Also are trees animating from a far? They shouldn't be.
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Pirate Myke
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Posted: 13th Apr 2015 21:51
Turn off the physics for the trees. when the player walks thru the level they will tend to walk around trees and structures, already.

If you sprayed trees, walk around your level and delete trees that are on top of each other or within canopy reach of each other. spraying likes to double them up, same with flowers or bushed.

Use the landscape as a block, not rendering areas that can not be seen, will speed things up.

In F11 mode, shut off AI as that is not needed, and will give you 7 to 10 FPS back, shut of Light mapped objects, which there should be done anyway.

See how these go in improving your Frame rate.
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MooKai
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Posted: 14th Apr 2015 07:23
These are all work arounds, which normally shouldn't be necessary. If...
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Pirate Myke
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Posted: 14th Apr 2015 11:32
These are not work arounds. These are smart level construction techniques.
if every one applied these the all your levels would run better.

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nuncio
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Posted: 14th Apr 2015 11:36
Quote: "GG uses only 1 core of cpu, most pc's use multiple cores to achieve faster speeds but 1 core of those is still running slow (generally) therefore a newer pc wont technically run GG any faster yet"

oh. this is very sad. so that means you can't impress anyone with a future machine from the pentagon. but that's good to know. now i know the error and that it affects all of us no matter how high the machine specs are. okay. i guess there will be something done about it somewhen.

Quote: "Some of the trees slow down the game a lot I noticed. I can't recall which one exactly does the most memory drain. All I recall is it was a large animated tree with quite a number of polys. It contains no LODs that I can see."
i have the feeling that the "jungle trees" don't use as much memory as the other trees of the same size. but that's just a feeling...

@myke: these are good ideas, i will try that at home. maybe i will even make a try for the competetion...
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Pirate Myke
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Posted: 14th Apr 2015 11:56
your welcome. trees and foliage will kill performance the fastest due to the number of polygons when you get close to them.
Trust me no one walks into a tree on purpose, the human mind will steer you away from it. Turn of that physic for them, and see how much more you can do.

Spawn stuff when in range, don't just leave it on from the start. take advantage of the tools given for proper level design.
especially characters.
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3com
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Posted: 14th Apr 2015 15:45 Edited at: 14th Apr 2015 15:48
@ Mike
Thanks for the tip mate!

Quote: "Turn off the physics for the trees"

Any chance to make it via fpe file?
Since there are a lot of trees here, and via Properties panel can be a pain.

edit: as addition I've tried:
GravityOn= 0/1
physicsOn= 0/1
in tree.fpe file, but it does no work.

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Pirate Myke
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Posted: 14th Apr 2015 16:35
Your welcome. I will inquire about what can actually be in the fpe file that the interface will read.

What I normally do if I am going to spray foliage, is set one, change the properties, to what I want. accept that. extract that one, Press I on the keyboard for spray mode.
then holding the shift key, use the LMB and spray the object. It will set 3 or 4 in the same spot if you don't keep the pointer moving.

I also find that after I set one and repack it, that holding the shift key and the r key then clicking where I want the trees, is just as fast, and I don't have to go thru and check for duplicate trees.

If you want to get rid of all the trees as once, as a group PM me and I will tell you a work around that works for me. Quick.
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smallg
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Posted: 14th Apr 2015 17:34
you could use collision for just the trunks though ideally right? there's little need to use physics for the leaves but the trunks alone would be a good solution for any trees that "may" be walked into... for whole forests and background trees i agree turning off physics is a good idea however

i may be wrong but that's my understanding of the process with GG for now, i certainly never see cpu usage go that high - about 20~23% even when fps drops to a crawl (5fps or so) and if it's only using 1 core that's about right as i have 4
the good news is if that is indeed the case then we should see substantial gains if ever cpu does get more used
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3com
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Posted: 14th Apr 2015 17:53
Quote: "If you want to get rid of all the trees as once, as a group PM me and I will tell you a work around that works for me. Quick."

I pm you, thanks for help me.

Quote: "any trees that "may" be walked into..."

That's my case, player can walk between the trees and plants, they are not solely a background than the player can not reach.

I agree about trunks and leaves.

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MooKai
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Posted: 15th Apr 2015 08:15
Sorry myke,

But turn off the physics for the trees, is a work around. Not a smart or clever level design.
It's a performance problem of the engine, nothing more or less.
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Uman
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Posted: 15th Apr 2015 10:31 Edited at: 15th Apr 2015 10:32
True it is to say generally speaking that as the player one normally avoids by natural instinct walking into Trees or other solid world objects as we are aware that they are "supposed" to be solid and physically impenetrable. i.e. in real life walking or running into them would normally hurt a great deal so we naturally avoid doing so. Ever walked into a lamp post - ouch!

In GG however you wont as the player always avoid doing so for example in the confusion and heat of battle its easy to walk through any objects which should be obstacles but would not be with physics turned off.....

In particular in regard to trees, woodland and similar entities specifically if you had a woodland (not a dense forest particularly), however - your enemies as far as I am aware, unless programmed to do otherwise, internally to the engine or otherwise, would be able to walk straight through and would often do so as entities with physics turned off would I presume not form part of any obstacle avoidance system. Such entities able to be walked through and would not be avoided by enemies at all and would be ignored by them from that point of view making any kind of woodland enemies difficult to accommodate. That relates to any entities whether or not they might be foliage, veg, trees or any other, a wall, crane, box and so on.

Perhaps all of that is incorrect as I have no real idea what recent updates have introduced in this area of the product.

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Posted: 15th Apr 2015 10:47 Edited at: 15th Apr 2015 10:49
@MooKai:

Well if your crazy enough to spray a few 1000 trees with out any thought, then you get what you get. I strongly disagree with you. Taking advantage of things to gain better performance is not a work around. it is proper planning for use with the tools you are using and the limitations of it, in its early access phase.

Think before you start spraying things is all I am saying. If you know your level is going to bogged down with 1000 trees in it then don't do that and complain that the engine cant do anything.

My 8 year old boat anchor can do a lot with proper thought and planning. and have a full looking scene. and still get 30 to 45 fps.

Proper planning and a balance of assets and functionality go a long ways. not just randomly plopping items on a map then constantly complaining about it.
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MooKai
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Posted: 15th Apr 2015 11:50
Myke, read what Uman wrote.
I guess he could be right, about saying the enemies will walk thru the trees then. (I've not tested it yet, coz I am in the office, not at home).
But I think they will walk thru the trees.... If I have time, I will test it tonight.

Another thing is... 1000 trees...

Well, at the moment there is a competition, create a natural map.
We can select a small or the entire map.

If I want to use the entire map, then I will reach easy the 1000 plant objects.
So the framerate will go down for sure.

Sad point is.... I don't have time to create a nice map for the competition, coz I am in bangkok from Friday on. For 3 weeks
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synchromesh
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Posted: 15th Apr 2015 12:14
I just did a test .... Characters do actually walk around trees
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MooKai
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Posted: 15th Apr 2015 12:58
But you can walk thru the trees, because you are a "Highlander" .

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nuncio
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Posted: 15th Apr 2015 13:04
i also thought that it might become a real challenge to fill an entire map with nature because of the memory management. i will try this and tell you what happened but i usually have problems when there are a few trees in my levels because i always built big and detailed maps. maybe this time it will be different
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3com
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Posted: 15th Apr 2015 13:23
Quote: "coz I am in bangkok from Friday on"

So, don't forguet the camera, and make good temples textures, and fun.

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Posted: 15th Apr 2015 13:41
Ah man, I have thousands of temple photos... This time I will spend much time at the pool and my wife, I guess shopping
And at Phuket I will take some nice plane/jet photos from the beach
They are landing there close to the beach, similar to the famous St. Maarten airport...
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smallg
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Posted: 15th Apr 2015 17:31
Quote: "I just did a test .... Characters do actually walk around trees "


did you actually turn physics off for the trees though? they run through them if the physics is off - sometimes they run kinda diagonally by default so might look like they're running around but that's just their path

there's a very clear difference as you can see here (i did notice i can no longer fire through the tree's even without physics which i'm 99% sure i could do before though)



as i said before the best option is likely to change the collision mode to a much more simplistic mode for objects that will be in the playable area - if it isn't already
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MooKai
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Posted: 15th Apr 2015 17:33 Edited at: 15th Apr 2015 17:33
@synchromesh

here is my test result.
trees physic off = ms. zombie walk thru the trees.
ok, if you want later complains ("IT'S A BUG!") from your players/gamers/customers then turn off the physics

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Posted: 16th Apr 2015 00:42 Edited at: 16th Apr 2015 00:45
Your missing the point completely. this is for where the player or AI cant get to. it can even apply to any object that don't need contact. This is not a bug, this is intentional. A bug would be if the engine did not allow you collision at all.

Example: for the contest for the nature walk. They are trying to fill the whole map with scenery objects. There's is no AI walking thru the scene. Just the player on a casual stroll. Create a scene for beauty shots, not for AI.

For game play where there is AI and interaction. Then Have the physics on where you need it. Not up on the mountain where the player cant get to.

If you want more detail in your scene just use some common sense.

You are not going to be able to pack out any engine with todays computers with out putting a serious frame rate drop on them. There are sensible level building techniques that are used, right to the skybox having actual city views on them instead of real geometry. You will never get to there so why waste the resource on it.
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Posted: 16th Apr 2015 07:09 Edited at: 16th Apr 2015 07:11
I never said its a bug. But later the people who playing the game will say its a bug, if they see the zombies walking thru the trees. So turn off physics is not really a good idea, I think.
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synchromesh
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Posted: 16th Apr 2015 12:12
Turning an entity to static is an "option" ...not a bug ...
So the same can be said for physics ..... the "option" is there for this reason
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Pirate Myke
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Posted: 16th Apr 2015 12:18
@ Mookia, you still seem to be missing the point. Again; I'm not talking about areas that you (or the AI) would be interacting with. I'm talking about any area that is off limits to either the player, or the AI.
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Posted: 21st Apr 2015 10:19
hi there! i 'm so desperate about my latest map i built with GG. it is really a good map for my skill level really good there are about 18 wooden huts, one river, two bridges and trees around the little village. when i put 3 (THREE!!!) enemies on the map it's really running slow until the enemies are killed. when i have like 4 enemies it's not playable anymore. the reloading animations for the weapons are so slow, every time i reload they always kill me.
i did a lightmap so it looked even much better but then it's much slower, not playable anymore.
i already have everything on the lowest settings and it still is not running good. this village covers not even a fourth of the map! i already wrote this into my island hopper thread but i'm afraid nobody will reply there, the last 5 posts were all by me :o

but something elso about memory issues:
there is one thing that is always happening to me, no matter how big or full the map is.
there was a free pack in the "free stuff" section. it was a huge pack made from old entities. it was a supermarket with shelfs, fridges and funny labelled cans ("beans: 100% beans" "cat flakes: 100% cat"). "bargain market super store" in yellow and red i guess.
when i build a small supermarket with two shelfs, not really much i always have the same problem. when i enter the room the game slows down completely. just when i leave the supermarket it's going back to normal speed. i experienced this for the third time now in three different maps. it's always happening.

so for me the biggest thing to do in development is please, please make the memory management better! every map i built does not run like i would like them to run, also not on an advanced machine
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synchromesh
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Posted: 21st Apr 2015 11:11 Edited at: 21st Apr 2015 11:17
Quote: "but something elso about memory issues:
there is one thing that is always happening to me, no matter how big or full the map is.
there was a free pack in the "free stuff" section. it was a huge pack made from old entities. it was a supermarket with shelfs, fridges and funny labelled cans ("beans: 100% beans" "cat flakes: 100% cat"). "bargain market super store" in yellow and red i guess.
when i build a small supermarket with two shelfs, not really much i always have the same problem. when i enter the room the game slows down completely. just when i leave the supermarket it's going back to normal speed. i experienced this for the third time now in three different maps. it's always happening."


This part sounds like the models have some issues .... We even had a few TGC models cause this a while back...it was fine until you got close... Try a blank map and add the store items ..... see if any one or all drag your fps down ..... it could be just one tin with an issue ....

Also many of these free models packs are directly from fps creator ( Not saying that one ) so also check their Fpe,s are up to date
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smallg
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Posted: 21st Apr 2015 11:19 Edited at: 21st Apr 2015 11:20
are the supermarket items all static? it's a physics issue so making them static should solve it

Quote: "when i put 3 (THREE!!!) enemies on the map it's really running slow until the enemies are killed. when i have like 4 enemies it's not playable anymor"


have you tried placing the enemies as static too? they wont do anything but it'll tell you if it's the script or the model that's causing the issue - if it's the script then a simpler script would solve your issue otherwise you'll need some enemies that don't have so many polys
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nuncio
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Posted: 21st Apr 2015 12:23
Quote: "This part sounds like the models have some issues .... We even had a few TGC models cause this a while back...it was fine until you got close... Try a blank map and add the store items ..... see if any one or all drag your fps down ..... it could be just one tin with an issue ...."

afaik it is the shelf wich causes the FPS rise. i walk pass this shelf and suddenly the game slows down dramatically.

Quote: "Also many of these free models packs are directly from fps creator ( Not saying that one ) so also check their Fpe,s are up to date"

i think they are from FPSC, yes.
when i check the FPS files, what should i mention. i have not really enough knowledge to find the problem. what shouldn't be in the FPS file, what should be? is there something that can be spotted?

Quote: "are the supermarket items all static? it's a physics issue so making them static should solve it"

do you mean that they were red when i inserted the items and not green? no they were red (static) do you mean this?

Quote: "have you tried placing the enemies as static too? they wont do anything but it'll tell you if it's the script or the model that's causing the issue -"
no i didn't yet but i'm really sure that it's because of the enemies. because before the enemies it was running well. not awesome but ok.
i used the enemies from the GG source folder, the "black ops soldier(?)" and two "combat soldiers" for every wave.
Quote: " if it's the script then a simpler script would solve your issue "

what do you mean with script? i mean, what script exactly is it that i should watch? i have not used scripts exept the ones that are automatically used by placing an object.
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synchromesh
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Posted: 21st Apr 2015 12:31 Edited at: 21st Apr 2015 12:35
Quote: "i think they are from FPSC, yes.
when i check the FPS files, what should i mention. i have not really enough knowledge to find the problem. what shouldn't be in the FPS file, what should be? is there something that can be spotted?
"


Yes if you open a pretty standard fpe file it looks like this



Where as the old would look like this ...



.fpi would be a dead giveaway as old in the script..... at that point you could use a default .fpe and modify that for each model

You should only have to rename the model, texture and heading in the new fpe.....and rename the fpe of course
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tomjscott
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Posted: 22nd Apr 2015 22:21 Edited at: 22nd Apr 2015 22:22
I'm not sure what the simplest form of collision is for trees, but you could always try turning physics off as suggested here, but then putting simple invisible box shapes in place where the tree trunks would be. Simple box colliders would probably be very light on CPU usage and might help give you better performance, but still have collision.

Edit: With the new scaling/position/rotation widget, this would even be easier to adjust them to closely match the size and orientation of the trunks.
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Posted: 23rd Apr 2015 14:53
I don't normally mess around with the f11 settings as I always figure they are needed. Oddly when I disable AI some rocks and plants completely vanish from the scene. I've already pretty much made my compo map, so disabling the trees collision would be a tedious task and to be honest not to my liking (I never much like trees you can walk through and my level is free roaming).

Just thought I would mention the odd AI behavior of the objects.


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Posted: 23rd Apr 2015 18:41
Looks like this is the workaround thread
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smallg
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Posted: 23rd Apr 2015 19:39
Quote: "Looks like this is the workaround thread"


of course it is, until GG ever gets finished there will always be stuff you need to work around

Quote: "what do you mean with script? i mean, what script exactly is it that i should watch? i have not used scripts except the ones that are automatically used by placing an object."


yh i noticed that the enemies gives a huge slow down on performance when they fire, only time i've used loads of enemies before is with my own firing script so never noticed it until now, unless you're willing to write your own there's nothing much you can do about that but wait for it to get "fixed"
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nuncio
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Posted: 24th Apr 2015 08:24 Edited at: 24th Apr 2015 08:24
@synchromesh
i just found out that i got the supermarket i was talking about all the time from your homepage:
http://www.gamegurufiles.co.uk/models2.html
i haven't had time to look it up yet but i will compare these two codes you wrote there with what i got. maybe there is a reason why this always slows my machine when i walk around it...

@smallg
thanks for explaining. i really have just little knowledge how all of this works on the inside. i just build the maps

thanks for all the answers
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synchromesh
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Posted: 24th Apr 2015 08:53
Hi nuncio

Now I know what pack it is I will give it a try myself
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nuncio
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Posted: 24th Apr 2015 09:53
okay great! i have made a normal sized super market (i don't have any screenshots if this at the moment) in one of the wooden huts, the sandstone buildings AND in the warehouse kit, everytime it was stuttering when i entered while the rest of the area was nice to play. it looks like the slowing down starts when i walk pass the sheld with cans in it... ?! i mean it's not the end of the world but i recognized this problem several times in different maps.
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Posted: 24th Apr 2015 16:08
If you edit the FPE of the offending object, changing the collision flag to collisionmode=0, you should avoid slowdown entirely from walking close to the objects. It doesn't always work well with complex objects, but most times is just as good and of course doesn't slow down just by touching it. It is a collision issue and has been around for ever


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Posted: 24th Apr 2015 16:47
You can also use this in the FPE file now and set it above 100 slightly to increase the collision distance from the object.
collisionscaling = 110

You can check this using the debug option in the matrices panel, setting it to 10 will show the collision boundary's to placed objects.
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Posted: 26th Apr 2015 01:42
thanks for the help!
i just played my level as standalone and i found out that it doesn't have any effect when i change something about that supermarket. the whole game is running so awfully slow that it's not playable at all. everytime i reload my gun the bad guys kill me all the time. it looks like a slow slideshow.
as long as i can't use all of my machine power to run the game it doesn't make sense for me to continue my project. honestly this is not fun to play it, it's just annoying although it's looking pretty good
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DVader
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Posted: 26th Apr 2015 15:39
Are all the entities dynamic and physics enabled? How big is this Supermarket? I'm sure there must be something you can do to optimize it more. For instance, if it is inside and has it's own floor objects, try disabling the terrain and water. You will get a big speed up if all you need is the interior scene.


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nuncio
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Posted: 26th Apr 2015 18:57
hi! the supermarket is just a little problem. every time i have an indoor scene with multiple objects it's getting really slow
today i played my map on a really fast machine and it was awfully slow. i already told you and i know why now

it was an inside level and i tried to optimize as much as i could. i already reduced all the terrain options (because it's inside) and have medium entity options, terrain on lowest.

in the other map i have an outdoor scene with, of course some trees and terrain and it's running well. when 3 enemies are on the map it's so slow that it's not really playable anymore and when the enemies are killed it's ok again. i already left the lightmapping away because this slowed it down more.
this has always been my problem from the beginning.

Quote: "Are all the entities dynamic and physics enabled?"

yes. some objects are dynamic but what is better? physics on or off, what saves more memory? what is better for objects? static or dynamic? usually i have them static exept when i want them to be moved or tossed around
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Posted: 27th Apr 2015 15:55
You can completely disable the terrain and other options by hitting F11 in a test game then turning off the features along the bottom with the appropriate number key. That will give you a bigger increase than lowering the terrain as it no longer displays it at all. it depends if you want to go outside or not really, although you can still have objects to replace the terrain floor if you wanted.

You are generally far better using as many static objects as you can compared to physics enabled ones. That way the physics system has less objects to check through.

Game Guru is fairly limited when you get any complex scene going, until occlusion is working properly we will struggle with any large scenes. All we can do is do our best to utilize the available engine by clever level design and object choice etc. I look forward to some speed enhancement work as it will transform Game guru if it can cope with more complex scenes and still keep up frame rate.


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