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tomjscott
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Posted: 24th Mar 2015 16:05
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In Lee's blog today, he states the following:

"I dare say we could argue that the whole of the F9 mode should be abolished, but in this case it’s part of a bigger plan to make first person editing a very powerful and liberating feature moving forward. For a long time I personally liked the idea of playing my game, pausing it and adding a few more scenery items, then resuming the game and carrying on to the end. Much more convenient than exiting back to some editor, dropping stuff in, then starting again with a fresh test game! There are other reasons why F9 will become very powerful, but I will keep these secret so I don’t get bashed over the head in two years time for not implementing it "

I disagree completely and believe F9 mode should be abolished and as soon as possible. This idea of playing the game, pausing it, adding a few items or making modifications, then resuming is certainly great, but done through this F9 mode it's abominable. Take Unity, for example. You can do all of this without an F9 mode. In fact, just to get to F9 mode we have to wait while Game Guru spends several minutes preparing the game to run. Whereas in Unity, you press play and it just plays immediately. In Unity, you not only have the great 3D editor with multiple perspectives like we so desperately need, but you can view the scene AND the running game at the same time in separate windows. And if I want to pause it, there's an actual pause button. Once paused, I can manipulate the scene any way I want and see the results instantly. I can even step forward frame by frame.

This is what we need. Not a more powerful F9 mode that takes 5 minutes just to get to. F9 mode is not liberating in any way. It is a great straight jacket. I hope others can see the value of a better system such as Unity has. After all, if this is supposed to be the easiest game maker, then it should at least be as easy to use as Unity.
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Posted: 24th Mar 2015 17:28
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personally i never use f9 either, it's just very impractical, needs some menus/better controls or something as it's currently very difficult to see what's going on with it.
but as long as we get full 3D view in the editor i dont really care if it stays, it'll likely still be useful very occasionally... maybe
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Posted: 24th Mar 2015 17:35 Edited at: 24th Mar 2015 17:39
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honestly I 'm disappointed with this program I thought that years from FPSC x9 this tool would be more complete but ho surprise they took a lot of things and now the program is very limited, I will have faith and hope for the end result to get good games and not the same always with his characters and animations sorry for my english
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LeeBamber
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Posted: 24th Mar 2015 23:46
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I agree the Unity ability to pause the action and manipulate the scene any way you want and see the results instantly, and step forward frame by frame, backed by a fine-grain editing experience is pretty cool, and I hope you agree is a valuable capability. The closest thing we have to that right now in Game Guru is the F9 mode, and it is very early days still. Today I added the additional functionality that when you add in new weapons, ammo and characters in F9 mode, they suddenly spring to life when you are finished with the F9 mode and presto, you're in the middle of a fire fight. I think it's a pretty cool feature and allows 'game creation on the fly'. To throw F9 all away means the software will have NO ability to pause, manipulate and see instant results.

I genuinely want to take this feedback on board, and I am curious to see how Unity performs it's 'pause, edit, resume' during an actual game test. Maybe someone can make a small video showing a simple game level, some enemies running about, then pause the game action, add 5 more enemies and some extra ammo, and then resume the game to see if the player can cope with the additional assault. My goal is certainly not to copy Unity as we don't need two of them in the universe, but I would like to see how in the above scenario our current F9 mode is failing end users compared to the Unity way.
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tomjscott
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Posted: 24th Mar 2015 23:57 Edited at: 25th Mar 2015 00:04
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Lee, the main complaints I have with F9 mode are as follows:

1. It takes several minutes in a game level to even get into gameplay mode and select F9 whereas in Unity when you press play it instantly starts.
2. It is an unintuitive camera fly mode instead of a point and click perspective editor mode
3. Adding objects is through another unintuitive interface instead of point and click from available entities.

There may be other reasons why I don't like it, but those are the main reasons.
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Posted: 25th Mar 2015 01:57
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Even in the current, limited implementation, F9 is a incredibly useful for making terrain tweaks and fixing collision derps which sometimes happen when terrain editing. I also find it useful for placing small objects as it's easier to rotate things when placing them because the rotation rate is so much slower and smoother.
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Posted: 25th Mar 2015 03:25
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Quote: "ven in the current, limited implementation, F9 is a incredibly useful for making terrain tweaks and fixing collision derps which sometimes happen when terrain editing. I also find it useful for placing small objects as it's easier to rotate things when placing them because the rotation rate is so much slower and smoother."


I've found limited use for it in some really tricky situations. Of course a more proper solution like we see in engines like Unity would make it absolutely invaluable.
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Posted: 25th Mar 2015 03:37
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Hey Lee i just did some poking around with the F9 mode and found a bunch of bugs. I've posted them in the bug section.

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Posted: 25th Mar 2015 08:10 Edited at: 25th Mar 2015 16:49
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I wouldn't abolish F9. In fact it's quite useful because it shows the scenery exactly from the player perspective.

Especially for indoor levels when it comes to the finishing touches, I would rather use F9 than top down because this way I won't miss any floating stuff or odd placement as the player would encounter it and can correct it on the spot.

I admit I know nothing about the unity way of doing it, but for my part I found the way Legend of Grimrock I+II handled map building near to perfect: While in the editor, there is ALWAYS a scalable window visible that shows the part of the map you are just editing through the player perspective. And with a single click you can play the level from that window. It only takes a few seconds, probably because the game constantly renders the map for this window.
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Posted: 25th Mar 2015 09:16
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i think f9 has its uses, as in to fine tune terrain besides that i dont use it. i dont use the widget either, a pointless addition but that is me, i had a quick go but found it odd hard work and i can add things quicker my way
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Posted: 25th Mar 2015 10:59
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For me both Top/Down and F9 have essential uses and I wouldn't lose any of them ....But more views would be even better
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tomjscott
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Posted: 25th Mar 2015 12:38
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Quote: "I wouldn't abolish F9. In fact it's quite useful because it shows the scenery exactly from the player perspective. "


Wouldn't you rather have a player perspective view without having to wait several minutes to run the game and then pressing F9? That's my main point. Other engines allow that and that's why I say abolish it. I'm not saying don't have a player perspective view.
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Posted: 25th Mar 2015 14:11
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Relax mouse in f9 mde, would be nice.

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Posted: 25th Mar 2015 14:22
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Quote: "without having to wait several minutes"


Tom, I'm not getting load times coming near to minutes wait. How big are the levels you are trying to build. I can test a map and only need to wait a maximum of 30 seconds to get in and test. I agree - after using Unreal Engine - it would be nice if the test was instantaneous, but, I don't mind waiting.

I must say, the F9 option has come on leaps and bounds in the last couple of updates! I never used to use it, but, I use it quite often now. As EAI said above, you can get much more accurate with positioning and rotation. Plus, the camera doesn't 'bob' when you move, so, it would be a great way to get video clips for trailers and such! (as long as there is an option to remove the crosshair)

I think there is still room for improvement, but, what we have now works well.

Well done to the team so far, you have done very well and it shows that the community is listened to.

Cheers

Jay.




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Posted: 25th Mar 2015 14:54
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F9 mode is coming along for me. Much better now with recent updates (might be worth checking out if you have not as yet). You can select objects easily now and position them around a lot better than earlier efforts. I have however found AI freeze now after resuming, or at least the stuff I have been working on.

Regarding the load times. I can agree that can be a real issue with large maps. Makes testing anything a slow tedious process, especially when scripting. I can easily wait for 2 minutes or more for a semi large map to load. Really big ones can take around five!

I wonder why when making a test game it has to load up the media again. I can understand it for a stand alone, but in the case of the test game, surely using the already loaded objects would be faster?


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Posted: 25th Mar 2015 15:02
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Quote: "I wonder why when making a test game it has to load up the media again. I can understand it for a stand alone, but in the case of the test game, surely using the already loaded objects would be faster?"

Tatally agree!, those kind of data should be stored in a memory cache, even better in a temp file.

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Posted: 25th Mar 2015 15:17
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Quote: "I wonder why when making a test game it has to load up the media again. I can understand it for a stand alone, but in the case of the test game, surely using the already loaded objects would be faster?"


Exactly.
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Posted: 25th Mar 2015 15:54
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I have GameGuru running on an SSD. Maybe that's what is helping me!

Has anyone else got GG running on an SSD that can confirm the reduced waiting times?

Cheers

Jay.




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Posted: 25th Mar 2015 16:03 Edited at: 25th Mar 2015 16:04
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My waiting time isn't usually more that 20 to 30 seconds either ...Its never really bothered me like that ...
And that's just my standard PC installation .
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Posted: 25th Mar 2015 16:22
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I don't like F9 for editing, and only use it so I can fly up above my map (in perspective) to view how things look together. I've tried to use it to make edits but with poor results. For example, once an object is selected, it moves with the movement of the mouse. If I'm looking to make a fine adjustment it is very difficult with the mouse. I'd rather see using the mouse to select the object, and then only use keys to make the precise movements that I want.

In the longer term, if/when we get to video integration, F9 could be used to capture video which could then be used as transitions. However, we would need to be able to toggle the HUDs on/off so it does not show in the video.

Of course this would not be an issue if we could could get XYZ movement and rotation commands over the camera/player. Then I can script my own video capture moments and would not need F9 (though F9 as I described above would be easier) I don't care if F9 stays or not, but it should not be a priority over the many other things this engine needs.
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Posted: 25th Mar 2015 17:32
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I've never waited for more than a few seconds for a test game to load up, and I have a 3TB HD only. I'm not sure why you're having to wait several minutes for a test game to load Tom?
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tomjscott
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Posted: 25th Mar 2015 17:46
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I can't remember the exact timings so maybe that's a bit of an exaggeration, but certainly 30-40 seconds has been confirmed by others here as well. And that is 30-40 seconds too long to have to wait in order to get into a perspective editing mode with nothing but a cludgy, unintuitive and restrictive interface. When I was developing my own game engine many years ago, I put in my own sort of F9 mode as a quick hack to allow me to add elements to the scene and move a few things around. Why? Because I needed a quick a dirty way to do that until I had the time to make a proper editor that could give me those features. But a program like this that's been around for this long needs better than a quick hack for editing in 3D. Why are people so against having a proper 3D editing solution?
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Posted: 25th Mar 2015 17:48
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Quote: "I've never waited for more than a few seconds for a test game to load up, and I have a 3TB HD only. I'm not sure why you're having to wait several minutes for a test game to load Tom?"


Really? I always have to wait 2-4 minutes. I just timed launching The Big Escape through the editor and it took 2 minutes 20 seconds before it was ready for play. Morning Mountain Stroll took 3 minutes 25 seconds. Even a totally blank map with no entity at all takes 20 seconds or so to launch. I have a six-core CPU + GTX 680 + 16GB RAM + SSD.
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Posted: 25th Mar 2015 17:50
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Thanks, xCept, for the confirmation on several minutes. I was beginning to think I was losing my mind or something.
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Posted: 25th Mar 2015 18:13 Edited at: 25th Mar 2015 18:16
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I think we can all agree that loading times can and will be improved.

I've not encountered the several minutes of other users, but we are aware that this is an area in need of some attention.

Compared to some other engines GameGuru is a very young product and is still in Early Access, so has a way to go. We are committed to development for many years to come but we believe that no other product offers such instant ease of access and rapid development as this and this will always be our main focus, creating a very easy to use game development tool that will create high quality results.

What I will say however is that while we work on improving loading times and adding many other features, if any user feels another engine suits their needs better at present, why not try that and come back to GameGuru in a couple of months. Once you've got a copy of GameGuru, you'll always own it and will always receive free updates. We're releasing almost daily fixes, tweaks and feature additions and are listening to users feedback to ensure that you all get the product that you all want. This will of course take time but we are making great strides and will continue to do so.

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Posted: 25th Mar 2015 18:34 Edited at: 25th Mar 2015 18:37
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Quote: "What I will say however is that while we work on improving loading times and adding many other features, if any user feels another engine suits their needs better at present, why not try that and come back to GameGuru in a couple of months."
Sounds like the best option to me, instead of hanging round here whining I will go get my head around something else.
Last time I looked at Unreal it was UE2 and who knows!.....I might just find it a breeze this time around.....all the same, means I won't have time to be posting up any 'suggestions' or bug reports for improving this software and there is always the possibility I won't come back at all after putting all my efforts into another engine
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Posted: 25th Mar 2015 21:58 Edited at: 25th Mar 2015 21:58
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Lee's blog today shows they've finally taken this advice to heart and we're going to have a perspective editing mode soon. I'm very pleased that it is finally happening and I'm glad I didn't give up on trying to make my point here.
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Posted: 25th Mar 2015 23:10
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Quote: "My goal is certainly not to copy Unity as we don't need two of them in the universe, but I would like to see how in the above scenario our current F9 mode is failing end users compared to the Unity way."


Right! I'm going to spend $1,500 to find this out? I don't think so...

I have looked at Unreal 4 and Unity (just out of general curiosity). One is very expensive and the other could never be mistaken for an easy to use game engine.

I suspect the sudden development of a 3d editor is not due to any one single observation by anyone in particular.
The discussion over having a better means to handle entity placement in the editor has gone on for some time, Lee has always intended adding this feature.


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Posted: 25th Mar 2015 23:21
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Quote: "I have looked at Unreal 4 and Unity (just out of general curiosity). One is very expensive and the other could never be mistaken for an easy to use game engine."


They are both free now.

Quote: "I suspect the sudden development of a 3d editor is not due to any one single observation by anyone in particular.
The discussion over having a better means to handle entity placement in the editor has gone on for some time, Lee has always intended adding this feature."


Who do you think started all those discussions way back?
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Posted: 25th Mar 2015 23:34 Edited at: 25th Mar 2015 23:35
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tomjscott I don't think you can take any credit for that one I am afraid. It has been on the list to be added since the very beginning, as chosen by the development team we all knew it was needed. It has been on the list since then and for the past few months was planned to be added just after the early access launch.

It was only not done much sooner in favor of performance and bug fixes.
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Posted: 25th Mar 2015 23:39
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Quote: "tomjscott I don't think you can take any credit for that one I am afraid. It has been on the list to be added since the very beginning, as chosen by the development team we all knew it was needed. It has been on the list since then and for the past few months was planned to be added just after the early access launch."


One wonders why it has been met with so much resistance then. Not that I really care if I get credit for it. But I'm just all the more excited because I "have" been a strong proponent for it for so long.
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Posted: 25th Mar 2015 23:41 Edited at: 25th Mar 2015 23:41
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It was never met with resistance from what I have seen and heard from the team (both here and internally) we have always liked the idea, it was just a big change so we wanted to do it when we were ready.

No idea is met with resistance we just want to ensure all eventualities are looked at to do what is best for everyone.
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Posted: 26th Mar 2015 00:56
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@rolfy
Quote: "I might just find it a breeze this time around"


I hope the above quote is just an expression of frustration (it happens to me all the time).

It is true that both unreal4 and unity are free (although Unity may have some fees if you want to use the store, etc, ect)
Just as a lark, I downloaded and installed both engines, just to see what they have to offer. The complexity of both are a little over whelming ! If you choose to go this route be prepared to spend not just a few days understanding the umpteen selection options but weeks trying to create anything beyond a few cubes.

I think lee has the right idea in developing an engine that is easy to use, with as few menu selections as possible. (at least compared to the afore mentioned.)

I'm not one to offer advise, but you might want to hang in there a while longer, either way you can always check in and out here.
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Posted: 26th Mar 2015 01:24 Edited at: 26th Mar 2015 01:39
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With my Mod hat off ..

I can Honestly say I have seen my eyes have been opened the last month
Pretty much every suggestion posted is put to the team ...Everything is considered ...I never thought so much went on in the background of GameGuru development considering the size of the team....

Sometimes we hear something is going to be implemented ( one of your suggestions maybe ) then suddenly because of a ripple effect or a new bug , maybe its realised other features have to be improved first or altered for the new implemetation. so it gets put off ... But the intention is always there and does not go away ... it just gets delayed... no one is hiding anything or avoiding anything its just the way development is .

With this in mind its very difficult to make any promises or give definitive answers to " When will we get this or that " so if answers are vague then that's the reason why ... But from what I have learnt this last month is the team are 100% dedicated to giving you the product you want ....

Meanwhile there is so much you can do.. Learn Lua ... Experiment, learn to model or make some models in preparation ... Its all well and good saying right im off to Urinity but you would probably still have to do these things anyway ..
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Posted: 26th Mar 2015 01:33
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@syncromesh- I think an edited version of that post should be at the top of the forums. And stickied! Maybe more people will read it and realize what and where this engine/game maker/game is.
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Posted: 26th Mar 2015 02:01 Edited at: 26th Mar 2015 02:09
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I don't see any real reason to change the editor in the way it works. I have no complains about the top down view or the f9. things should be left the way it was. it clear it does not matter what Lee do to guru someone will complain about it no matter what. other engines are other engines. if Nintendo try to do what Sony and Microsoft is doing their systems then what will makes Nintendo so unique if all the systems did the same thing? guru does not need to be like other engines. this will only make the easy to use engine to be hard to use. Lee if you read this please don't change a thing. just keep going forward with other things guru needs. I know this is a what developers want software but TGC have to draw a line on what we think and what TGC think is best for the engine. fpsc was not a hard to use engine it was bugs that was the show stoppers in fpsc. limits will always be there it is just how far can TGC stretch the limits. i myself don't use the f9 much but I still see how it is vary useful. one of the reason why i don't use udk and unity is because i hate their editors. to me fpsc has the best and most easy editor made. i don't want guru to turn into the engine I don't like because of the editor.
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rolfy
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Posted: 26th Mar 2015 03:30 Edited at: 26th Mar 2015 04:15
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I was going to post a whole bunch of responses to all the above but can sense I would be wasting my time. anyone who doesn't get it yet should understand that additional features such as the widget and perspective view isn't about making it more difficult to use but fundamental editor functions required to make level design easier and anyone thinking about using Unreal being told "If you choose to go this route be prepared to spend not just a few days understanding the umpteen selection options but weeks trying to create anything beyond a few cubes." needs to understand these engines editors are based on pre-existing modeling apps and I reckon I would have more than a few cubes to show for any time spent in them.
When I said the last time I looked at Unreal was UE2 I didn't mean I merely looked at it.

I can hear the cries of "well have at it then" ringing in my ears already

To hammer the point home:
Quote: " Lee: The widget really comes into it’s own at this perspective and suddenly the assessment of heights becomes possible, as well as the vertical controls of the widget gadgets."

Sometimes the Dev needs to understand what the user is asking for and more importantly why and let me be absolutely clear on this I would have an easier time building a level in Unreal Editor than I have had so far in GG.

If all you require is a basic drag and drop editor with global sliders for shaders etc than have at it and let those of us who want more control have our say. You don't need to learn anything more if you don't want to but some around here want a development tool for games. Just a heads up,a lot of that 'ease of use' functionality is down to the assets. The editor is 'drag and drop' but who do you think struggles to make the media to work with this.

If I 'complain' about lack of functionality it is because I am in the dark about implementation and limited in what I can create to make it easier for you..
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Seditious
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Posted: 26th Mar 2015 06:29 Edited at: 26th Mar 2015 06:30
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Sorry if this sounds a little bit "gg vs unity/unreal", but I feel I had to reply to this fatuous comment:

Quote: "Just as a lark, I downloaded and installed both engines, just to see what they have to offer. The complexity of both are a little over whelming ! If you choose to go this route be prepared to spend not just a few days understanding the umpteen selection options but weeks trying to create anything beyond a few cubes."


Well, if you're going to sit on your arse for the next # years while GG is being developed, you're not going to get very far in that time! Given a few hours watching tutorials for unity/ue you'll start to get the hang of it (if you're legitimately interested), and after a few weeks you'll be able to do amazing things.

I think it's important to take a look at the features alternative engines/editors have to offer, so that they can be implemented in an easy-to-use way in GG.
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MooKai
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Posted: 26th Mar 2015 09:05
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F9 mode could be useful for bug fixing...
Old school FPS fan, DOOM!!! Why GG not working on my AMIGA 500?
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science boy
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Posted: 26th Mar 2015 09:26
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i think .......
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my big big angryness of a very very angry type dude type way is and will always be multiplayer crowbar ploy. and the fact it is now taking 50 percent of the coding team to keep with it forever. that as really swear worded me off, i think they need to draw a line with this mp malarky and put that coder to good use and crack on with other parts of this engine. then go back to mp work once a month for a week then monthly fixes happen and other things get done. it really does t me off that we suffer at the hands of m.p

on the other hand just carry on
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MXS
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Posted: 26th Mar 2015 09:28
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it is clear to me that guru may need a basic and a advance mode for the editor. the basic mode will be as simple to use as the way the editor is or was when you could just right to delete the objects. the advance is whatever that come in play after today blog. this way basic mode editor can be for those who are beginner or just want to keep it simple for game development. the advance mode for those who want more or who are modellers that will find it easier to get their models working in guru.it could be the best of both worlds. at this point I really don't expect anyone or TGC to take my point of view on this. I will go with the flow and in the end find out what I really payed for from the beginning may or may not be what I want in the end. whatever TGC decide I'm for it to some point.
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Posted: 26th Mar 2015 13:51
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Quote: "If you choose to go this route be prepared to spend not just a few days understanding the umpteen selection options but weeks trying to create anything beyond a few cubes."


Seriously? If you only plan to spend days on your game then you aren't a game developer. It takes months or years to make a real game. Spending a few weeks to learn a great tool like Unity is worth it. And if you want to do anything beyond a carbon copy FPS then you're going to need a lot more than a few days in Game Guru too.
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Pirate Myke
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Posted: 26th Mar 2015 14:37
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@MXS:
You can get your hands very dirty in this engine if you choose to. It has always been this.
you can choose easy for layouts, and go extreme on scripting. They are making this engine for ease of use. But I know for sure that I, myself like both capabilities, and both are still there.

Yes having lots of media as stock is great, but still having the ability to create my own style is greater. Using stock scripts as a learning point to advance them, Opening up the shader file and seeing what makes them work. One of the greatest joys of this engine, is the ability to modify anything.
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Posted: 26th Mar 2015 15:03
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I've locked this thread. The questions have been asked and answered/addressed. This is starting to devolve.
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