Is reloaded really cut out for outdoor maps ?

I ask myself this question everyday and no matter what i do i hit a limit with reloaded its all good and dandy till you try and bake your map then it all hits
the fan. The problem i face is for outdoor levels you need a good amount of Trees, foliage, rockery, the simple things to even make the area look good add that stuff and it doesn't leave much memory for other stuff in fact you can even push the lightmapping over the edge with just to many trees.

Will there be work done on real time shadows anytime soon for the people who cant use the lightmapping. I hate sounding negative but the engine should be able to handle anything we place in the space you have provided other wise why have it?

Also the baking was supposed to give us more much needed fps for me this isn't the case yes the shadows look better but there is no gain in fps i believe the time would have been better spent working on the real time shadows making them more efficient but that is just my opinion.

In any case i am going on a bit and its starting to sound like a rant so i will stop there and await the next beta

i actually baking a map with just over 900 trees in, havent even started witht the rocks and other details for a forest like scene yet, was hoping to get something quite outdoor like going lol. probably im using to much map though in reality and something has to be done as i find memory limit still to low for the size of the map..

im not sure about the light mapper vs realtime shadows i guess it will improve over time? and hopefully realtime shadows aswell, but the time its taking to do this map of mine is along 1 lol beeds shortening down abit or so lol. as to the fps gains yeah i am not seeing a big difference afterwards either.

Certainly not at the moment.

Once again I find myself playing the "BIG JERK" and asking why we continue to add features to an engine that can't handle the world it's been given. We've asked for a way to re-size the world, but I think this may be seen as an admission that the engine isn't what it should be. I'm afraid the joy of seeing our face on a character won't last long if we can't make a game to put it in.

I'm not questioning TGCs ability to make this all come together. Actually, considering Classic and X10..... I am. I see them on the same old path of putting lipstick on a pig and I expect to end up with a pig. Unless and until TGC decides to first build a strong core on which to add features, features that currently will either ensure that the core can't be changed or will have to be changed themselves when the core is fixed, I believe we're in for disappointment.

Hopefully I'm wrong and I will be very happy to admit it, if and when that time comes. I continue to support Reloaded and TGC, but I fear the worst. I know it's not popular to have an unfavorable opinion here, but there it is. I'm old. Deal with it.

Lucky for me I still enjoy playing around with Classic, especially with the community enhancements and I find myself on that forum more these days. It continues to be the best money I ever spent in terms of enjoyment for the buck.

Brian.

All i can say is one has to improvise,
am for example turning the Terrain LOD down and the Camera distance to 10, evrything under 10 would only be suitable when entering buildings, in corridor like rooms (just not in rooms where windows are), a value of 5 for camera distance in rooms would be fine and for the terrain/landscape am using a subtile fog that blends nicely with a dark sky (will add later mist particles)

This of course is only useful for ppl who aim to have a dark atmosphere (am using a vignette shader to make the dark atmosphere complete)
but a day like atmosphere with lots of grass and trees is knocking the fps totally down, simply because with the current performance you cant render that much without havin total fps drops.

And yes one has to decide if the shading of the terain and grass is that important or not along with dynamic lightning or pre bake, as you can see i prefer pre bake.

Anyways i wouldnt be upset only cause you cant fill up a map with lots of foliage, it will come later down the road.

kinda system specific question there but i agree to some extent, certainly no system that can fully use the current map as it stands.


agreed, culling, LOD and other such things should be worked on, no point having a few pretty buildings if that's literally all that the map is but then again those make for better screenshots and pretty screenshots make for better advertising, as long as it's possible in the end i guess it doesnt matter - my only worry is i don't believe even Lee knows that answer.



well yh again the baking isn't exactly a magic button just yet but it's obviously taking Lee a lot longer than he would have liked too so who knows, kinda a shame to drop it now but also can't just move on as it's still incredibly hit and miss.

i think it's clear reloaded still has a long way to go but hopefully it'll age gracefully



seems you like to play with pigs

( I could care less about character creator or multiplayer. I don't see myself using either ).



I just want the basics at the moment. If we are forced to do only outdoor levels for now then we should have better optimization tools to allow us to actually populate the map. We need proper culling and LOD billboards for trees. Indoor support early on is so insanely key I can't believe its being pushed back behind multiplayer and the character creator. The ability to even script your own characters, not DIE when you enter a pond... So many things I'm sure we could all see being priority.



I feel like I've been ignored for over a year. I remember suggesting features for x9.... x10....back to x9... now Reloaded. I consider them all the same product. So realistically I've been waiting a loooong time to make an FPS game with FPS Creator. Did I really just invest most of my adult life supporting a product and not an engine? How many successful games came out of FPS Creator? Like notably 3 or 4. Hopefully I can look back at this post not long from now and realize my doubt was wrong. But currently I haven't been that happy... just hopeful.



I remember working with my dad on a FPS with Dark Basic Pro so long ago. Trust me I've been faithful throughout the years. I'm just expressing my concern (as always).

here here.

It's a hard one.
One hand cash rules
Second hand product rules
Trimmings like multi and chas creator will be big selling points by time they will be able to make a game other bits maybe sorted.

But solid working engine as in no entity limit needs sorting and surely water needs work and other issues but I am not a pro so no idea of their plans. I am in the dark with it all. But they have to deliver as I think it will make or break tgc. Reputation and money etc

Shouldn't be a conflict. A solid product will garner a long-haul revenue stream. Flashy sell points are only profitable as long as customers can be deceived.



I don't think baking was intended to give an FPS boost to people with hardware such as yours. It's for min-spec hardware that can't handle dynamic lighting.

There's a still a long ways to go and I don't mind sticking with it to see where it goes. My biggest fear is that they will push it to steam prematurely and not be able to recover from negative first impressions. I also fear that they are shotgunning development in an attempt fill a feature checklist but sacrificing quality or depth of use along the way. Time will tell, I suppose.

I think that would be anyone's worry. But I don't think that will happen as long as the major bugs are eradicated. In particular the disappearing entities when saving because that will drive people mad! Having said that Lee seems pretty confident in his blog posts that he has fixed lots of bugs... I think multiplayer will bring a lot of people in as long as people here in the community are working on making multiplayer levels which people who buy the product can simply "plug in and play" because that will set a good example of what can be done.

Remember Titan Fall; it's success has been completely multiplayer orientated. There is no single player campaign at all! I think TGC could benefit very well from a large multiplayer audience on Steam and the ease of use of FPSC:R which is it's main selling point.

This depends on how difficult it is to cheat (old FPSC was very easy to modify weapon settings locally, IIRC) and what there is to do. I wouldn't exactly call Titanfall a success. At the moment of posting this, there are a whopping 22 viewers watching Titanfall streams on Twitch. Regardless, unlike Titanfall, there's nothing unique or interesting about the multiplayer (that has been revealed or mentioned). I do agree that it's a very important aspect to success and if the multiplayer is fun, it will be something to keep the engine alive and an avenue for attracting new users. If there was a system for vehicles, I know it would attract several of my Steam-using friends. That's about it though. There are already far better hiking simulators and deathmatch games to play. If, at launch, multiplayer is reasonably secure and fully supports NPC AI and scripting there could be some hope. Another challenge will be in finding a good niche and appealing to it. It won't be enough to say you can make levels and have a deathmatch. There has got to be a lot more to it for Reloaded to stay alive and compete on the big stage.

the trouble is the beta will still be going for a long time yet, when if not now, would be the "right" time for steam?
you can say when it's stable but there's still so many features to add, any of which could easily be unstable or take longer than expected.

i do feel the steam launch is likely to go poorly but that's most likely not reloaded but more the fact that people just don't understand "early access" or "beta" means bugs... they want everything and they want it now, that's not what we have here...reloaded is a strong product with much potential to be super easy to use (already saw a post with someone mentioning it is becoming very 'click & play' - although it was said as a negative - it is the idea right?)
unfortunately there wont be a second chance at the launch so let's just hope it goes well regardless of when

.
agreed, i know from personal opinion that if i see something rated poorly i wont buy it - if i knew nothing about TGC before i wouldn't have backed reloaded if it was rated poorly and you can assume most of the people who already know about TGC already own reloaded

i think reloaded could be released soon but it should be made VERY CLEAR that it's still got a lot to add.

I think making a completely multiplayer FPS at this junction in gaming history would be a mistake either way. I concur that a more polished product should be released to the masses, as consumers now a days are extremely demanding and have very unrealistic expectations as to what they want to spend their money on. There are far too many options for the causal player out there to release a subpar product. For the users that actually want to create a game and publish it, I think that TGC should definitely take their time and get things right. Successful business are built from doing one thing every well, not several things poorly.

This has been fixed internally.



On a personal note, I'm not actually a big fan of multi-player FPS and bearing that in mind, I've got to say that I've had a lot of fun testing out MP in Reloaded, even at an early stage, so I think it will be a feature that will do very well.



We are aware that we need to add to and improve many, many features, and that will happen over time, but our primary focus now is to make sure that everything that is in, works well. We are monitoring threads like this as well as bug reports etc to ensure that we meet as many of the requirements for a core product and we won't be rushing into a Stream release just for the sake of it.



SC

To answer the question - yes, it is, with several restrictions and a huge load of things to obey carefully.

We have at this moment the first map in work that uses the entire available space, luckily for us it´s a desert map with 2 bigger cities and some smaller settlements, and NO NEED for dense woods in between. I fully agree on all the improvements asked for and TGC is also working on at the moment (as Scene Commander pointed out), but if you cut the question down to "Yes or No", it´s an Yes, although one painfully screamed

Wouldn't it make more sense to utilize billboards or LOD for forests - only close-up trees, bushes, brush and grass is rendered and all things father away are either LOD to tiny file sizes or billboards? I think that's how it's done in large outdoor game environments.

Could FPSCR do that?

Mike

I was going to try this myself, the billboard option but I'd have to also model them myself. I think this also requires a script for each tree to rotate to always face the player when at a very far distance. I'm not sure if that helps with performance in any way with the running script though. That would be a bilboard of just a flat plain of a picture of a tree on it with an alpha channel background. That would be for an absolute flat tree. Or you could have two flat plains intersecting with the same image of the tree on either side (4 sides).



The image below shows one way you can create a VERY low poly LOD using only 3 plains. This may require an alternate texture or you could have a tiny picture of a tree somewhere within your tree texture DDS file.







I still think the culling range option will help us out a lot with removing distant objects your not viewing from being visible.

Auto-facing billboarding would probably put too much added CPU strain and negate any performance gains from reduced polycount. For Reloaded, trees would benefit more from an ultralow poly LOD stage like Teabone has shown. That method tends to not look as good once lit (the plane in shadow will become very prominent and dark) but it works well enough in games like DayZ. The biggest thing is needing a LOD distance slider that is easily accessed by the end user. In fact, that's one of the things Reloaded will definitely need before release to general consumption- proper graphical options that don't require editing an .ini.

I agree. Perhaps something like this?

Yeah. Bethesda games usually have all the right sliders so that the game can look AND run good across a wide variety of hardware setups.

I just wanted to add this in, in case TGC was unaware... FPS Creator Reloaded is already being torrented, once it hits steam it will be torrented much more, they need to implement proper security on there file structure, I am guessing they have not? seeing as it is in beta and only around 250,000 people (very rough estimate as I do not know, just a guess) have heard about it, and I already saw it being torrented in early alpha, a lot of steam user's want to "Try before they buy, if they buy" just another thought they should keep in mind.

The good news is Reloaded is going to be in perpetual beta stages. Whatever version they have will always be an older buggier version than the next.



Also it be wise to have a FPSC Reloaded DEMO that just prevents you from building your game to a stand-alone. Similar to Classic.

It's a little late for that I think, and insisting that the alpha's can build games pretty much insured they would be torrented, not to mention the lack of quality control when it comes to general public game/demo releases. A demo that can't build has long been a successful model and would have required absolutely no control or security.

Xplosys sums it up perfectly

Have a beer brian

History has proven that no matter how much time is invested into securing an app to prevent illegal distributions, they will still get cracked and patched. Adding too much security can in fact hinder usability or otherwise annoy legitimate users. Take SimCity for instance, Maxis/EA required the user to have an active net connection and run everything through their server even though it was a singleplayer game--the servers crashed and nobody who bought it could even play it when it first came out while it was still cracked almost immediately and those with the illegal copy had no interruptions in service. TGC should focus more on encrypting and protecting artist assets in distributed copies, perhaps, but even the model packs will likely make their way to torrents as well. Just the nature of the Internet.

@Xcept, very true, the funny thing was, is that I was just thinking about all that drama with Simcity when it came out. I also hope they secure the LUA files really good, or at least eventually come up with an Anti-Cheat, on top of using VAC (Then again V

It is ironic that all the police of the world falls on you, for example, to use a texture copyrighted, and secondly you can not protect your work against hackers, or the illegal distribution.
LUA is encriptable, but I believe this is not sufficient to prevent ilegal use.

You have to play by the same rules from hackers.
You have to develop a slumbering virus and include it in your game. As the game legally used, the virus will remain asleep / inactive, otherwise the virus will activate and then it is better that the hacker consider buying a new computer.

3com

Problem is virus's are illegal.....
You could end up in worse trouble than the pirate

I think the real key to curbing piracy these days is in offering a regulated multiplayer experience that doesn't suck. The challenge with that is of course in security from cheating/players ruining the fun. Alternatively, offering some kind of highly compelling experience that can't be accessed with an unregulated stand alone copy. FPSC users, however, tend to be solitary (by choice or by forum rules) so it's kind of a hard position for TGC to be in in respect to curbing piracy.

It certainly helps that Reloaded will most likely be in perpetual beta and a paid Steam instal should make updates less bothersome but this also applies to users who treat Reloaded as an engine as opposed to a game/hobby and intend to market their games. So, hopefully Reloaded will be capable of producing built games which are worth paying for. I don't know though if that's something that's compatible with the lone-wolf developer culture of FPSC or in TGC's vision for the product.

I do think that the Steam Workshop sharing of multiplayer maps is a step in the right direction. I just hope that people will see the potential of the multiplayer experience and not poopoo on it simply because it will only be deathmatch at the beginning. The fear being that TGC will abandon multiplayer enhancement if it is very negatively received by the community (which it probably will be judging from responses in the compo thread). I personally loathe deathmatch and generally dislike fast-paced PvP but am willing to cheer them on through this necessary baby step. I hope others will do the same.

TL;DR - Basically, what I'm saying is that there is no reason for a jaded or morally ambiguous PC gamer to pay for a single player gaming experience anymore. Carrots > Sticks.

i would say it's too early to talk full protection though anyway, after reloaded's core is more complete then security could be (and should be) looked at in more detail but for now it will only cause more issues than it's worth and increase the workload for the team, it would be nice to get a clear official answer on it though (or at least the plan) so people can make a clear choice about (multiplayer and) commercial games.

i think the death match multiplayer style will be fine for starters, a few clicks and already able to play with your friends (hopefully) is something that should be a pro for reloaded - regardless of if you enjoy pvp or not... that is core though, a very easy to set up and fast to join/share experience... i hope it doesnt require huge wait times and/or lag.
in future it should definitely be expanded for co op and such - hopefully anything that is single player will also be multiplayer at some point (for the entire project)

I think that could be the main Attraction factor of Reloaded on steam ....
I don't think there is any other editor on steam that can do this ?

There are several games with editors that fall into this category on Steam. Shootmania Storm is maybe the closest in terms of presumed ease of editing and simple gameplay (though it looks like it has quite a bit more going on than Reloaded will at launch). But editing maps and playing with friends isn't uncommon for Steam games.

^ I'm an early backer of Reflex (an FPS that pays homage to classic deathmatch shooters) and it has the most incredible real-time map editing abilities I've seen. You can switch from edit mode to game mode instantly, bake lights in real-time while still working on the level, and even collaboratively edit maps across the Internet. It's a custom-developed engine that is visually stunning too, even this early with no real textures or finalized media.

Here's a clip I made long time ago demonstrating the real-time baking feature.

i think the way the lights are reflected onto the tiles and just general lighting is so much smoother than reloaded. i know we are in beta and you can see amazing strides being made in reloaded, but i still think it is missing something when it comes to lights, i have been keeping quiet while they sort many things out, but i hope they sort the lights for indoor as it still keeps switching lights on when near and visible to the player, but i am seeing leaps and bounds being made, especially optimising very good there, and then with other things coming in like extra enviro tools etc. i hope that windows transparency gets sorted and so i can have a workable town and also the vegetation in the water is also stopping me from doing a swamp level. and little bits like that, which i fear will be kept in the never get round to it like my dads kitchen improvement d.i.y left for multi player and never again taken on board.

Yeah, the lighting and effects look quite good. I too wish Reloaded was more dedicated to locking down lighting early on as affects so many things down the chain. When you don't have detailed textures obfuscating things it makes it harder to hide bad lighting. Strangely enough I think something like Reflex was what TGC would have liked to have made when it was developing Classic since it reflects the pre-mod simplicity of fast paced jumping around and blasting things which was likely the dominant shooter style when they conceived the idea.



I think one of Reloaded's biggest challenges is with trying to be many things to many people which means not necessarily excelling at any one thing or having a clear path to pursue. As a result, they have to do wide sweeps that gradually build up the different aspects in an attempt to keep people satiated. The side effect being that it's not possible to make great progress on any particular aspect and that is frustrating to some. From what I've heard, future plans will have the dev team focusing specific aspects per update which will hopefully mean more refinement and quality but at the same time it may mean waiting a while for them to come around to working on the bits you care about. Overall, I think this method, while tedious, will result in a really good engine as long as the framework can handle it... If we get to the point where the engine is buckling because of lack of 64 bit support or something I am going to blame everyone who cried for Reloaded to run on XP toasters.

Haha

Even though I still have a 32-bit XP partition for some extremely limited uses (namely to play a few old games) I am definitely a proponent of canning XP support for modern applications. I know that TGC is still making Reloaded and AGK compatible with XP, but that can come at a cost to the vast majority of users who have long since moved on. For example, AGK is compiled to retain XP support and as a result it uses some obsolete libraries that are no longer even included with Windows 8, so while AGK apps will run fine out-of-the-box on ancient Windows XP systems, they require special attention and custom installers on Windows 8 to ensure compatibility. That isn't ideal when there is just a miniscule fraction of users still on XP, and Microsoft called off support for it a year ago. Even the most popular widespread apps such as Chrome are no longer supporting XP come this spring.

i toatally agree with errant on this. people want state of the art aaa to run on bontempi computers and zx spectrums. guys get a better machine that runs 64bit then we can advance, time to leap out of the stone age, man we are on w10 nearly so come on get with the times, especially if you want to make these type of games. need some oomph

I to agree with Errant AI. in my own words they need to not support xp. it is outdated and lacks support by Microsoft. like saying hey is there any vista user out there we can make reload support. I my self have updated a lot of people pc from xp and from vista to win7. need to be said that hey I'm sorry but it time to move on to bigger better things. people need to be push to move on. reload main focus needs to be the performance and how it can handle a large amount of draw calls. as soon as reload hit 300 to 400 draw calls the performance drop bad. get up 700 draw call well you have lost any chance with 60fps. levels like the first escape demo is pretty basic. but make something most complex then that will be hard for reload to chew on.

cant really blame reloaded for microsoft's failure - if vista & 7 had been better products maybe people would upgrade, XP was a very good OS compared to the newer versions so i can understand why people still use it.
but it's certainly not all system spec, reloaded runs much slower than you would expect even on high end systems.
windows 10 will still have a 32bit version as well anyway.

The XP jab was me being a bit facetious but clearly it's a hinderance going forward. It's more than just outdated OSes that people are expecting to run things on but XP/Vista-era hardware as well. I mean c'mon... up until the holidays, I think Lee was using an 8800 or something like that. Realistically, I'd like to see something like the 2GB GTX 750 ti as min-spec graphics hardware, if only so that devs can count on being able to use more modern pipelines for rendering and physics. I'd think that would help a lot in instances where Reloaded choking on draw calls which should be easily gobbled up by up-to-date hardware.

And then there are other examples of inefficiencies that stem from Classic baggage such as .X format and the way it stores all the animation frames in the file. We waste so much memory from having a handful of different characters all with the same animations imbedded (I'm guessing this is why the enemies only had pistol animations until recently- to save memory usage). It would be much more efficient to have the character models with only the skeletons and skinning info and then have the individual animations exported separately and placed into libraries to be loaded on as needed. I don't expect something that substantial to be changed (nobody, including me, wants to lose all their legacy media) but I guess the message is that we need to be thinking objectively about which things to cling to because they ultimately may be holding us back.

We can all shout till were blue in the face. Fact is 64bit support isn't coming any time soon. We will have to wait for it to happen. Apart from memory increases it's not likely to do all that much speed wise though. I think you may be thinking more DX11 support etc, which would probably need 64bit support in advance at a guess..

Oh it's also very easy to say get with the times. Especially if you work in the PC industry, but the fact is many people can't afford to do so. I'm pretty sure anyone here who is struggling with performance, if they could, would upgrade. I doubt many are just holding back because they don't feel the need. Still, the fact remains I should see better performance with my video card than I am seeing at present, regardless. I can slow it down to 20 odd fps with a small smattering of trees close together..

Speed is definitely getting better, but for proper performance, we need some serious boosts still. I can't quite understand why occlusion and quads are still not in. Other games use them effectively, so it must be possible. Although in the case I just pointed out they would not help as all the trees are close.



Edit



Are you serious? What game possibly lists a 700 series as minimum spec? Plus, even a 480 would destroy a 750 speedwise, even though it is an old card. I sometimes think people forget that most people don't upgrade their PC every 6 months. Minimum is the bare minimum you need to run the software, not run it well. That's what recommended configuration is for.

XP is the best windows till now. The only XP handicap, is Microsoft stopping XP support.
IHMO

3com

Yes, I am serious and you are missing my point. Before you get too upset, don't be distracted by nomenclature here because I said "like" the 750ti. I'm talking relative performance (something equal or greater Passmark score with equal or greater RAM). Absolutely a 480 would smoke a 750ti. The 750ti is essentially a budget gaming card (classed as midrange but since release it's been a go-to card for budget-minded gamers who want to use higher settings at 1080p with good FPS). You can buy them new for around $140 or less. You comparison with a GTX480 doesn't really fit your argument of people not being able to afford things because even today they run over $300 and when released they were $500+. Consider that by the time Reloaded is relatively "complete" it will be maybe another year from now and then it could be another year beyond that before anyone completes and brings to market a quality game made with Reloaded. By then, I'd think there should be little excuse for not having an equivalent or better card (even if that card is older generation but high enough tier to compete).

I just think you are setting the bar a bit high for low specifications. I think a 450 in honesty can run Reloaded fairly well as long as you are careful with your settings. I know someone with an old 450 and they sometimes run things faster than my 660, which seems odd. Obviously a 480 is a high end card and you are correct that most would not have one. But obviously they might. They may have bought the 480 for future proofing (As far as you can anyway) and now can't afford to get anything else for many reasons. Seeing a minimum spec of a 750 may cause them to think that their 480 won't support Reloaded at all. Not too mention laptops that many use. Although I cannot imagine why anyone would get a laptop for games, apart for convenience.

Also, with an ever changing version, specs may well vary over time and get higher. We do have to be realistic though. We are never going to make a game that compares to the top games out there. Not in Reloaded, at least not at the moment. If you want to make high end games for high end gamers you are not only limiting your market, you are competing with the top games. How could anyone compete with GTA5 with something made in Reloaded for instance? That's a bit new, so lets go back, Skyrim. That's old now but still, to make Skyrim in Reloaded would likely be impossible. Those are the games you will be competing with. I don't think it's a market to aim for. If you look at the indie games out there though, yes Reloaded could probably compare well to many, although it obviously needs a few more features yet.

Reloaded's minimum spec would stand for our games as well. Having a high minimum spec will certainly limit who can buy our games down the line. For those of us that actually make and sell one of course. Also, if I see a high minimum spec, I expect a game to be pretty special from the get go graphics wise. So seeing a Reloaded game would make me wonder why I need such a high minimum spec when I compare it to older games I have. Well it would if I had no knowledge of Reloaded or game beforehand.

Reloaded is getting better with each release, how much further it will go with the tech it has we can't say for sure as yet. A lot of work has gone into getting the lower end systems working faster, which should also filter up to the high end to some degree. I think Lee used a 9800 as his low end card. I agree more work is needed on high end stuff, but really think the low end support is a boon for Reloaded overall.

Isn't that kind of cruel though? I realize that this is the norm. but Is it really better to bait people in and get them to invest money on the engine and media and then crank up the specs on them rather than to give caution up front?




I realize now that suggesting a 750ti sounded overly aggressive but I truly believe it's mostly just a semantic disagreement that we are having here. Most any card since the introduction of DX11 should run Reloaded OK on lowest settings, with texture size divided and at low resolution. My definition of OK here meaning being able to run the editor and test game without falling under 20FPS(testgame)/30FPS(standalone) with scenes of expectable complexity. I would't have a problem with 400 series as the lower limit. But a 9800 (slightly worse than an 8800) at the lower limit gives me pause. There's a notable tech gap there.



Now, If I were a cold-hearted business man, I might say that if this person can't afford an upgrade (Irrelevant for the 480 in your example but lets replace that with something older and less capable like a 9800) then they probably won't be able to afford buying lots of media either... And that's where TGC makes their real profit. So is it a good business decision to support users who aren't going to be capable of supporting their bottom line? Is it good for the product and it's longevity to eschew 64bit or DX11+ because of these users?



Yes and No.

Yes, It's clearly doubtful that any game made with Reloaded is going to be the killer app that makes line up to upgrade their PCs just to play it. However, gamers with larger disposable incomes and better hardware are in a better position to consume Reloaded-made games because it means less to them to blow a few bucks on an indie game that looks interesting. For them, the game will run at acceptable levels or even run very well depending on how it's put together. On the other hand, an average budget PC gamer who would most benefit from low spec compatibility is probably just going to hold out until the years-old AAA game they want is on Steam sale for five bucks and overlook something made with Reloaded altogether. So, no, I don't think it limits the actual audience too much when it comes to non-free games made with Reloaded (which is the dream that accompanies most FPSC enthusiasts when they come onboard). Because of this, one could even argue that you run into more head-to-head competition with AAA games when targeting the low end.

As far as competing with something like Skyrim I think it's not unreasonable to expect that level of complexity/fidelity in Reloaded but it is unreasonable to (at the same time) expect the same levels of performance optimization. I think we all have high expectations of the Reloaded team but I don't think they have the engineering or QA staff at their disposal to make a miracle engine which runs/looks great across such a wide swath of hardware.

I think the elephant in the room is that Reloaded is going to really need something really special up its sleeve to compete and we're not seeing it yet nor do we have a clear idea of what that will be.

Look you want that type of quality you going to have to work off your behind to get it, it's not impossible, just going to take sheer will power and know how to be able to do it.Errant has being working on off in the industry for a long time one of the few people that actually know what is going on in the industry and has a good grasp what it takes to be a level designer and game creator.

His simple reply would be that reloaded changed things a bit with the terrain system and collision ect, ect. it is far more likely to be able to develop a quality indie game that sells a thousand copies if you put the effort in, compared to classic which managed some success as well on various fronts.

It takes a fair bit of time of getting use to the "reloaded way" of designing a level, even thought reloaded is hampered without the ability to create primitives from with in the editor to create some nifty level designs.However it still relies on the skill set of the developer as well how much time he is willing to put in.

Reloaded can only get better from here in..... Its a good starting engine and if im honest I don't want it to do literally everything for me.....
The idea is to design your own game..... Not just make another version of what everyone else is doing ...

No but primitive creation is a must unfortunately, there is only so much you can do without it, and the conkit, isn't going to improve things, you do need some "freehand" mesh creation. It really does put a damper on how creative one can be, it's a fact.The problem is I am spending far more time outside the engine it's self to create my environments than in it to create a game.



The same applied to classic far more time in my 3D editor than in the actual engine.When they did the feature request thread at the start of the project, it's the one thing I want more than any thing is to spend less time in my 3d editor and more time in the engine.That pretty much fell of deaf ears, even went as far to mention that a stand alone editor to create a level in tied to the engine would be ideal.



Look TGC has their own interpretations of our requests, and often enough got it right or horribly wrong, case and point the conkit. I have taken the time and resources to write many emails on aspects of level designing and how to improve those aspects in reloaded.



The one being primitive creation, if you want people to buy your engine this is the one thing you should have, the engines weak point is the heavy reliance on store and stock created content to push the product, it isn't going to be enough.The problem with such content is that they have reuse in mind and no matter which way you spin it, this content is not ideal for a proper large level.



The problem with primitive creation and why this engine will NEVER have this system in the foresee able future is that it removes the reliance on store and TGC content and all the cash flow that comes with it.So TGC is not going purposely damage that aspect of their business model, but rather damage who will buy the engine and what it will be used for in the long run. I guess it's the lesser of two evils, still means people will need to worker harder to get their own content in the engine, to get great looking levels going.

I don't think that it's fair to say that the creation of primitives will harm the store. Primitive are just that, you're not going to be able to create say a train, or a weapon etc using primitives. We will be adding a character creator soon, and we don't see that harming potential custom characters sales.



It's simply not been a priority as other areas have needed focus.



We all agree that an editor overhaul and added functionality is a must, but most users would I feel prefer attention paid to say, better water, better vegetation, etc over editor functions at the moment, but users have different opinions and it's a fine line to please everyone at this early stage.



This thread has been very useful for the team and has been a handy guide to what users want for the future. Don't forget, that we don't see Reloaded as a FPS engine, but as a game development engine and fully expect to see things like 3rd Person, vehicles and a host of other features in the future. It however is vital, that at this stage we get all current features running in a way that benefits as many users as possible.



SC