Hey guys, long time no see! I am still here, just doing some random modeling in my own free time and stuff, and also watching the progress of FPSCR! Had a read of the newest blog post and found something interesting though...

From Lees blog post today:



Does this mean that we can now make static models that have multiple textures? I.e. exporting a model from an application with multiple materials and texture uv information? This sounds great if that is the case, because then I for example do not have to make a single texture for every single prop in a game, and would save on uv space (not cramming all uvs into a single texture). I hope I am explaining correctly :S

Yea i believe this is the case and will make me come back and use reloaded so good news!

we will have to wait and see in 1.9

I didn't see that !!!

Im gonna try it now

it wont be in till 1.9 m8

Yeah, this is definitely good news since my comp entry still suffers from the black texture issue. I'm looking forward to the new version so I can get my game demo back fully functional.

From Lee


Dave

yep works NOW !!!



Just don't put anything in the textures line of the fpe



I just created a model with three different textures ( 3 png files ) and just dropped them in with the .x and the fpe ...

@synchromesh it works in the editor it always has but when you build the game that's when they go black but will be fixed for 1.8 so great news!

@TattieBoJangle

Ahh right....Never worked for me before though ..

@synchromesh, I'd be interested in testing out one of your models that you couldn't get to work with multi-texture in the editor. I can't see any reason why it would work on some people's machines and not on others. Maybe there is just some small little t

I'm sure that this will open up some new possiblilities for entity creation, and even level design! I like this.

Basically a while back nobody could use multi textures but I did find a a way around it when I was using 3D World Studio ....but it was a bit of a blag...



Since then I think you opened a thread that suddenly yours were working ..... However mine still did not .....

But now ..... Mine have suddenly started working since reading this so whatever I send you would work now anyway



I do now have a question on the multi textures though..... In the fpe I leave the texture field blank so they all show up....... so lets say im using 3 separate textures.

( Wood, Stone, Brick for instance ) can I still bump map each texture



So can I have...

wood_D.dds

wood_N.dds

wood_S.dds



And



stone_D.dds

stone_N.dds

wood_s.dds



etc... etc....I assume the UV effects will still work ?

This has no UV mapping at all but seems to pick up the Surface texture of what is normally just Black...

It doesn't look half bad to be honest...

I'm not sure on this. I don't think I have any that specified normal maps in the .x file for the extra textures so not sure what will happen. I'm assuming no because the shader is expecting the normal, specular, and illumination map to come as input to the shader, which the engine has to pass to it. So unless the engine is handling this automagically then I doubt it.

Hmm I will have to give it a try....BUT !!!....Now I can use multi texture and use software im used to that I can texture as I go easily ..... I can now do wonderful things with ease..... ready to go into reloaded and only took an hour

Best to make sure these things work in V1.009 standalone mode first before I get to carried away ...

But I may just pop this one on Reloaded files tomorrow ..

Nice looking bridge! In the close-up it looks as though it has a normal map. Does it? If not, then it looks even better! LOL

Multi textures: 1.0085

I have several entities that use two DDs texture files. By leaving the texture variable in the FPs file empty and locating both of the required DDs files in the same folder as the other required files for that entity I have found that the entities works fine in both the editor and the test level.

They do not work in a standalone game version (both are black) . Only one DDs file is transferred (saved) to the standalone. The missing DDs file can not be copied to the standalone because of the encryption issue. It is my understanding this may be resolved in the next release.

I should say here, that while the engine does now support multi textures, we still don't recommend it for performance reasons. If you're planning on uploading to the store, we generally do prefer a single UV map, with normal, specular and an illumination map if required.

SC

No Normal map......Just 2 png textures used......Like I said it seems to reflect the surface of the default black model....

A pic of the model with no texture beside it shows what I mean better..

@SC





Does this mean there are already models on the store using multi textures then ?

Or am I mis-reading ?

I have added a B priority task to V1.010 build (the one after V1.009) which will detect for _D names in the internal model and attempt to load and apply _N, _S, _I and _O textures to the appropriate stages if found. This should enable you to enjoy the benefits of bump and sundry in the future.

That's Fantastic Lee thanks

V1.010 ? How many versions do you actually have I wonder
You probably have experimental versions pretty far ahead of what we are seeing il bet ..

I see now, thanks!

You might think so, and certainly in my head I have V1.010 forming, but in the real and practical world I only have V1.009

@synchromesh

Yes, there are some models that use multi-textures. We ourselves are slightly guilty of this in the form of the wire fences in the desert pack. I believe a number of other models also use them, but don't have the names of them at my finger

Oh I must take a look...... If only to see how the hell you got them working in standalone

this is great something i always wanted for fpsc is now about to be in reload. but as much as the performance is a concern I think we should still be allow to do this at our own risk. one thing about game development is you have to take risk doing what most other would not take the time for doing. this how you stand out as a game developer. I believe the users will find away to balance the performance using more textures as I already have. but keep in mind everyone that the memory can be come an issue in the end. so word of advice don't over do it. also I think the store is lacking about the models in the Description. it need to tell us what models have multiple textures and what models have single textures.

@ Scene Commander

You could allways put a not in the store with models using multi-textures,so people that dont want to use them wont purchas them.

Dave

It is adding more textures to drawcalls and held in memory, there aren't many games out there using muti textures and those that do use very small texture sizes, relying on the normals for details. An Atlas sheet is normally used, (not a single texture spread over several models which some call an Atlas) it has several textures built into one large texture sheet which is shared by several models and requires a single drawcall for diffuse, normal and spec.

You haven't seen much of this in FPSC as there is no point in providing a user with several models when they may choose only one and call a huge texture for it which uses only a small part of it. Atlas would normally be done on the developers end where they requuire several small deco objects throughout a level.

The reason I mention all this is to point out that though some engines may support multi texturing it is not something you will see much of in an actual studio produced game, if used at all it would be used sparsely, if a modeler can't uv map a model properly there isn't much chance they would go to the lengths of creating a proper Atlas for games use.



If these are being sold through the store they must contain the info on how many textures are being used and the fact that there are three of each, diffuse,normal and spec. I agree in some cases that multi texturing would be necessary, but if it is to be used as a way to avoid properly texturing and uv mapping game ready models for sale around here then it's going to be a bad move.



It is already the case that the store requires some models to have an excessively large texture map for models without increasing this using multi textures to the extent that the engine will crawl,or crash, which does no favours to the development of this project. This is game design software not a modeling program.

If you don't believe me wait till the conkit comes out and mangles all those textures into an Atlas reducing the quality right off on export/import.



It is a balancing act and not something to be too freely used, there should be good reason for using multi texturing, not simply because it is more convenient for an Artist who can't be bothered with uv mapping to export it and upload quickly and for the store at least some sort of guidelines must be in place for it.

Interisiting point of wiew rolfy.

3com

Don't get me wrong, multi textures can actually be an advantage and help with performance in your own level designs if planned correctly, but like Atlas textured models they are not going to be right for sale in the store.



If the models were modular and parts used several times throughout a level then it works well, but if it is just a single model/s then there needs to be a good reason for doing it.

I agree rolfy.



also keep in mind it is not a sure thing with characters because the shader in reload might not accept multiple texture characters models. but on the other hand I can see why this is a must because most people like me want use models that is outside of the tgc store. like me some wants to explore other option of models to give our game that unique look and not just another reload game using the same models over and over again. I myself have dip my hands in the unity store. but all in all like rolfy said you have plan correctly to take advantage of this option.

I just wanted to point out why I think Lee is so reluctant to go with it, Reloaded is not Unity or UDK in the respect that many users may not be expected to understand optimisation and it is aimed at folks who want to create games out of the box with no prior knowledge.



If they drop a load of multi textured models into their game and it crashes they are going to blame the developers not the asset creators. It goes without saying that game asset designers should know what they are doing if they want to make game ready models in the first place. If a user wants to try putting high poly multi textured models into their games then that is their call, but not something you want to offer as game ready for Reloaded and expect no comeback from those who will complain about performance.



No offense meant Syncromesh but that bridge you have above could very easily be uv mapped to a single texture, it might require some slicing of the mesh to create the needed uv islands but not a major job. There are of course times when more than one texture is needed but only when there is no other option should this be the case.

I work on a beginner tutorial to make models with multiple textured "singletextured".



-Wolf

The biggest thing for me about this whole thing is not whether or not using certain multi-textured meshes is optimal or the correct way to do things, but whether or not the engine allows us to use what modeling packages produce. It's not really the engine's role to force developers to conform to a certain model creation standard. If a 3D modeling package allows multi-texturing, albeit really bad ones, then the engine should allow us to use them. It's the game developer's responsibility to optimize models and do all the things necessary to make his game the best it can be. And the bottom line is that every modeling package out there allows multi-texturing. So, that's my 2 cents.

Yes they do because they are modeling packages, so you seem to expect the game creation software to be forced into meeting the standards of the modeling packages? Maybe it would be better to force the modeler to learn how to uv map properly then there would be no need particularly since most of these modeling packages come with uv mapping capabilities....there is a reason for that.



So who is right? I really don't care it's not my problem it's for TGC and users to sort among themselves, all I need do is make sure any assets I create aren't going to bog down the engine and any games I create run silky smooth, it's up to users themselves and a non issue since it goes into the engine anyway, as I say it makes no difference to me but maybe you might want to consider the larger user base



I stand by what I say and what I say is from my own knowledge and experience, limited as it may be, I never heard of a games package meeting the requirements of a modeling package, if you go down that route you might as well go all the way and pick one and then we can all be forced to use that since they all have different propietary formats, shaders, material layers, bone hierarchies so on and so on.

I think you're a bit confused on this issue. Engine's do conform to the output that modeling packages produce. If an engine supports the .x file format then they also support multitexturing since the .x format supports multi-texturing. If they support fbx then they also support multi-texturing because fbx supports multitexturing. Come to think of it, I can't think of a single model format that doesn't support multi-texturing.

What you're saying really makes no sense.

Also almost all other Engines around the same level and price as reloaded support multi-textured im not saying im going to go crazy and have a full level all with multi-textured models but the option should be there for some of the models you just think arrrr i give up its more effort than its worth lol. I understand what Rolfy is saying that users could blame the engine where it could be the models but that would be obvious if they send lee a level and it is full of multi-textured models.



I still think its a good move and support it all the way.

Yes, I understand as well and have said so. The point being that it's the game developer's responsibility to optimize his assets and game and not the engine. Yes, the engine should be as efficient and optimized as possible wherever it can be, but that also includes making best use of the rendering pipeline when it has multi-textured models. But in the end, the game developer has to balance what he's doing, optimize where he can, and make a whole lot of decisions about polygon count, texture sizes, number of textures, unloading/loading on demand, streaming, sound quality, etc. If He just goes nuts and has models with 15 textures at 2048x2048 then he's not doing what he can to make his game playable and the engine is not to blame. But multi-texturing can be done just fine with good performance as is proven by many engines out there doing it.

Actually no.... this software is being developed with ease of use for those who don't have a clue and will purchase assets from TGC store, this seems to be forgotten too easily, it is not being developed primarily for users who can do it all already.



Just a heads up but I could use multi texturing myself and in fact would like it to be in there with proper shader applied, it is something which needs to be planned ahead though.

Once you have a lot of models using more than a few textures in your level they will soon add up (just a couple aren't going to hurt anything), it is a well known fact that users of Classic always threw in the kitchen sink then complained about performance. This will be worse if they don't know which assets are needing this extra attention.

Let's put it to rest, you all wanted multi texturing (which I am well aware of and used in Classic many times), I pointed out why I think Lee is unsure of it....it is going into the development.....end of.

That statement doesn't in any way disprove what I'm saying. In fact it asserts that what I'm saying is correct. Right now as a non-modeler I can't use more than half of the pre-made assets I already have because the engine just isn't easy enough to import them and use them as-is. Quite the opposite in fact. You must jump through hoops to make things work.

True, Lee is putting it in and true we want it. Also true is that many engines, all in fact, do it and a great many still have superior performance to FPSC-R. Go figure.

Non taken mate and I agree ....But that and other models I have made have been made in 3D World studio and it does not have a UV mapping facility

So what I have done in the past is make the 2048x2048 texture first with all I need on it and align it within the studio.....Then use Crazy bump to UV the texture after giving me the D.N.S dds textures.....

Basically when it comes to modelling in blender im crap..... But mapping in Radiant .....That's second nature to me and 3D World studio is very similar which also allows me to texture as I go in seconds.... Stuff I used to do for Ravensoft in Elite Force is the kind of thing Multi texturing will allow me to do again.....

But your right of course....If huge things like the map pic below slows the engine to much then big models may not be feasible......However most of the textures you see there are 256x256

Multi-textures are now supported, however - as has been stated, each texture is a draw call, and before anyone runs away with the idea that they can use 10's of textures, I'll advise against it. - That's all I'll say .

SC

Does this mean the Conkit will use the same draw call for each of its textures and we will have to be just as careful ?

@ Rolfy... multitexture or not ..Me and many others are waiting for your uvmap tutorial ....so we can bypass or attenuate that...
thanks in advance

The CONKIT will actually use more of a texture atlas approach (the opposite of multi-texture in fact), simply so we can do a lot with one draw call (i.e. better performance) I have a few ideas how I can get multi-texture entities to auto-optimize as they come into the engine, so for the moment I think it is best we support as many X file imports as we can to allow full creative freedom, and then add the 'make it faster' onto my plate when more immediate performance gains have been made (occlusion, draw order, reductions, e.t.c).

P.S. Nice TNG shots! Hopefully coming to a Reloaded level near you?

Now that sounds good .

Dave