Product Chat / IDE Editor Thoughts

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LeeBamber
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Posted: 6th Jun 2014 16:01
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Hi Guys,

If you suddenly found your V1.008 version editor radically different, would be unhappy? That is, if we forced a new editing system on you, I am curious if there are users who would prefer the current system. Here is the thoughts on the new IDE control system for the editor:

Fly mode editing controls:

With Right Mouse Down "Fly Mode":
*Moving the mouse performs mouse look
*WASD (or cursors) to move where the camera is looking (flying)
*Holding shift - Nitro speed boost (significant movement increase - 200%-400%)

Without Right Mouse "Edit Mode":
*Moving the mouse moves the cursor around the current view
*Left click to select something

Entity Properties Access Change:
*Double left click to go into property editing mode or similar.

Entity Editing Change:
*Move, scale, rotate should be used after selecting an object rather than picking them up immediately. A widget appears allowing entity manipulation (rotate and scale), with controls for sliding position or picking object up entirely.

Thoughts welcome!

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The Next
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Posted: 6th Jun 2014 16:13
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I would love this change, I think many will agree this would be a much better way of editing

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almightyhood
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Posted: 6th Jun 2014 16:15
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honestly im not sure without trying it out.

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KeithC
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Posted: 6th Jun 2014 17:27
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I think if we could try it out for an iteration; we could give you a better answer. But I'm open to changing anything that will make putting together your level better/easier. I don't really care if the interface changes; as long as it makes sense, and is effective.
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tomjscott
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Posted: 6th Jun 2014 17:31
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I don't care much for fly mode in any situation since I believe that we should be able to edit in perspective mode and not a fly mode. I absolutely love the idea of the transform widget, but I strongly, strongly suggest that you put it in the standard editor mode in a perspective view instead of a fly mode. I shouldn't have to wait for my test level to run before I can edit in a perspective mode that is then very difficult to navigate just so I can transform my object properly. But you are starting to move in the right direction and I hope you will take these suggestions seriously.

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Posted: 6th Jun 2014 17:42
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I assume this has been tried and maybe you have something you could show us on video maybe
Im not really very clear on it ?
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Emrys
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Posted: 6th Jun 2014 17:50
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Lee wrote: "Entity Editing Change:
*Move, scale, rotate should be used after selecting an object rather than picking them up immediately. A widget appears allowing entity manipulation (rotate and scale), with controls for sliding position or picking object up entirely."


This would be a great feature, I'm up for anything that progress Reloaded.



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The Next
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Posted: 6th Jun 2014 18:49
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If anyone needs a visual aid for what Lee means watch this video



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tomjscott
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Posted: 6th Jun 2014 18:55
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Quote: "If anyone needs a visual aid for what Lee means watch this video"


That video shows pretty much exactly what we want. Just watching that video shows just how awesome it would be to have full 3D perspective editing with the ability to move the camera around and zoom in/out freely all the while placing and positioning entities "without" having to run a test mode. Please, we need this so bad.

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Posted: 6th Jun 2014 22:11 Edited at: 6th Jun 2014 22:13
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Quote: "That video shows pretty much exactly what we want. Just watching that video shows just how awesome it would be to have full 3D perspective editing with the ability to move the camera around and zoom in/out freely all the while placing and positioning entities "without" having to run a test mode. Please, we need this so bad."




I think I would probably go by the majority I don't know enough about this stuff...

But I don't want to lose a test mode though....Otherwise its compile a standalone every time to test it ...



All depends if my models regected as well
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rolfy
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Posted: 6th Jun 2014 22:13 Edited at: 6th Jun 2014 22:27
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Looks like some welcome changes to me, got my vote







Quote: "Entity Editing Change:

*Move, scale, rotate should be used after selecting an object rather than picking them up immediately."
A way to delete a selected entity would be a nice addition to it.

A funny thing happened on the way to the forum...
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Posted: 6th Jun 2014 22:20
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Quote: "But I don't want to lose a test mode though"


Oh, I never suggested that just to clarify. A test mode is awesome, of course, but a test mode shouldn't be the primary place where we are editing our world and placing entities. I think there is "some" benefit to being able to do these things in test mode, but the primary place for doing them should be in the editor without having to run a test mode and wait for it to load.

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Posted: 6th Jun 2014 22:28
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I would love this! you have my vote also





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Posted: 6th Jun 2014 22:34
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Well im going to say go for it ...Looks like all the Legends are for it
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DVader
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Posted: 6th Jun 2014 22:40
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It looks more like what we need, but I do like the current system in the main. An option to go from overhead to free view would be welcome though. Best of both worlds, I'm sure you could implement 2 switchable camera views easy enough. I noticed the ramp option being used on the vid, something we also could do with



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MadLad Designs
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Posted: 6th Jun 2014 23:00 Edited at: 6th Jun 2014 23:07
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Most definitely if it works at all like the Far Cry 3 editor.



Apart from the crash at the end, please don't do that.

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Posted: 6th Jun 2014 23:21 Edited at: 6th Jun 2014 23:24
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Ok now the bad news.....

How long we talking here before we get to test V1.008 if its decided ?

Will we have to start again before all the Tab functions for models etc ?



Or doesn't that matter cuz it will be more awesome ?
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mbarn
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Posted: 6th Jun 2014 23:43
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I would really like the new IDE control system for the editor. It would be a lot faster and easier to detail levels that way.

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unfamillia
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Posted: 6th Jun 2014 23:47
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Move, scale and rotate widget is a welcome addition in my book.

Being able to traverse the editor in 3D would also be a great addition.

I would welcome these changes with open arms.

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nelsonaddison
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Posted: 7th Jun 2014 00:11
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The edit widget is what I've been hoping for. Manipulating entities with keystrokes is inefficient. I would also like to see a better way of indicating the entity I'm selecting. The orange halo doesn't make it clear and I'm always grabbing the wrong entity. Maybe a bound box or having the entity itself glow.
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tomjscott
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Posted: 7th Jun 2014 00:18 Edited at: 7th Jun 2014 01:29
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I definitely want improvements in this area. But instead of double clicking the entity to bring up the properties, can you just bring them up automatically if I click on the item? I realize that when properties are shown in the editor now that it does a zoom up on the entity and all that, but rarely, if ever do I need that capability. I just need to see and edit the properties. But if you really want to keep that zoom up feature then maybe a double click does that and a regular click just shows the properties? You could even have a zoom to object button in the properties if you wanted. Or a feature to frame the selected object, which would be the equivalent of the double-click you are proposing.



Edit: Or if not everyone likes the idea of properties coming up automatically then make it a user preference that can be specified in some sort of preferences file.

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Posted: 7th Jun 2014 01:26
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I like it. Looks like it can make some nice stuff. So yes for me.

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Posted: 7th Jun 2014 01:28
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Quote: "But instead of double clicking the entity to bring up the properties, can you just bring them up automatically if I click on the item?"


I agree on this as well. Also, I would ask adding the X, Y and Z coordinates to the properties for fine tuning if possible.

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tomjscott
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Posted: 7th Jun 2014 01:31
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Quote: "I agree on this as well. Also, I would ask adding the X, Y and Z coordinates to the properties for fine tuning if possible."


Yes. And rotation and scaling in all 3 axis as well. Uniform scaling is not always what we want.

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Posted: 7th Jun 2014 05:25
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An undo feature also ;p, at least back one step Easy to make a misjudgment on the terrain sometimes with ugly results which would be nice to undo. The ability to hide objects temporarily may be useful too, while I'm thinking about it, although with the 3D option it may be more of a moot point.



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Posted: 7th Jun 2014 06:34
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I'd be happy with new IDE changes. The only thing I'd mention is that I like the arrow keys to scroll, so having them as well as WASD would be nice.

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Posted: 7th Jun 2014 10:37
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Quote: "If you suddenly found your V1.008 version editor radically different, would be unhappy?"


I actually said the same sort of thing to my son when I stood on one of his toy trucks !! "If you found your your truck was broken would you be upset"
Bear in mind of course I had already done it if that's anything to go by
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Posted: 7th Jun 2014 10:49
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Just to clarify. The video the Next posted is the style we've discussed internally. We obviously can't promise it will be exactly like that, but it is our current thinking. I'm personally in favour of the change.

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Posted: 7th Jun 2014 15:25
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ok so I watched the video the next put up, the engine crashed not long after what we saw lol. this I hope does not happen with reloaded if this idea is to be used. im still not sure about it, would still have to test it I guess, but the camera view was good. a widget off button would be needed I am not so good with them...

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Posted: 7th Jun 2014 17:02 Edited at: 7th Jun 2014 17:02
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Could we have the best of both worlds ...The overhead view as it is now and the 3D editing view like the video ?
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Posted: 7th Jun 2014 17:43 Edited at: 7th Jun 2014 18:33
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Quote: "Could we have the best of both worlds ...The overhead view as it is now and the 3D editing view like the video ? "




I can't see why not. I use another game engine that does that. I use the top view for fast layout and then switch to the 3D editing for more detailed work.



Here is an example of somewhat I would like to see in a editor:









It is easy to use and has the info I need at my finger tips. The NeoAxis 3D engine has a great Toolset.

However, that engine is way to expensive and not that great on performance.

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KeithC
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Posted: 7th Jun 2014 18:37 Edited at: 7th Jun 2014 18:38
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I forgot about Neo; it isn't that expensive for the pro version, and it has a free version as well. They've improved their terrain tools, I see. Lee would do well to look into this engine and what it does, as far as the IDE goes. It appears to have a better terrain painting system as well.
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mbarn
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Posted: 7th Jun 2014 19:14 Edited at: 7th Jun 2014 19:16
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Quote: "I forgot about Neo; it isn't that expensive for the pro version, and it has a free version as well."




I have the free version. The pro version is a good price, but did not include the Physics System. You have to go up to the Unlimited version ($700) to get that.



Quote: "Lee would do well to look into this engine and what it does, as far as the IDE goes. It appears to have a better terrain painting system as well. "




I agree.

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synchromesh
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Posted: 7th Jun 2014 19:26
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Quote: " Lee would do well to look into this engine and what it does, as far as the IDE goes. It appears to have a better terrain painting system as well. "


In Lees Defence ...He has stated many times he could spend months making awesome terrain tools for us but its the engine that has been priority...
But they will come im sure
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J0linar
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Posted: 7th Jun 2014 19:28
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+1 regarding IDE
and i agree with mbarn, we need the best of both worlds, a IDE Overhaul would certainly push reloaded out of the kids gamemaker corner, dont get me wrong but currently the editor is just not intuitive enough even if it looks like foolpro
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tomjscott
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Posted: 7th Jun 2014 19:29
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Quote: "He has stated many times he could spend months making awesome terrain tools"


And I say have someone else be a tools specialist and free up Lee to focus on engine only. But just not possible right now I guess. Still, I think it would be the way to go if they could.

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Posted: 7th Jun 2014 19:41
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Nice find mbarn never used NeoAxis before but being playing around and it looks promising





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Posted: 7th Jun 2014 20:33
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@TattieBoJangle: I only like the features of toolset from Neo. I find Reloaded to be way more promising than Neo to be honest. Especially after watching Lee's interview the other night.



I use several game engines and game editors. The toolset can m
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TattieBoJangle
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Posted: 7th Jun 2014 20:56
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@mbarn i agree if reloaded can get the tools and the performance in place nothing will stop them i would recommend Lee to have a look at other features as well like for example my .x characters work with this software as well as others. Also i believe the
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Posted: 7th Jun 2014 21:28
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Hi all,

Any improvement to make the FPSC-Reloaded better and easier to use are welcome, since that enhancement does not harm all hard work what has been achieved by TGC team so far.

That's my opinion, though.

Cheers,

-Northern
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synchromesh
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Posted: 7th Jun 2014 21:32
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Quote: "since that enhancement does not harm all hard work what has been achieved by TGC team so far."


That was my main concern...Going back 6 months in what's been done so far
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Posted: 7th Jun 2014 22:11 Edited at: 7th Jun 2014 22:18
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Quote: "@mbarn i agree if reloaded can get the tools and the performance in place nothing will stop them i would recommend Lee to have a look at other features as well like for example my .x characters work with this software as well as others. Also i believe the lighting need looked at when the time comes i get light coming through models :/

"




I fully understand. The fixes will come, it just takes time. It is really a balancing act. You fix one thing and it messes up something else. The big concern is making sure you don't lose your performance, as seen several times already. I think when they get the character creator and construction kit tools implemented in, a lot of issues will be fixed as you mentioned. But, that's not to say there won't be other issues. It is just the nature of it.

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Posted: 8th Jun 2014 01:34
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This looks awesome, The ramps are a def plus as its extremely difficult to get a smooth transition between two levels. That tunneling ability was sweet. I still would like to be able to add water at a different level if I so chose to. Ponds, lakes, marshes, cypress swamps, what have you.

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Posted: 8th Jun 2014 14:28
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I like this idea, HOWEVER if Reloaded is still being designed to run on laptops and ultra books (which are becoming more powerful) make sure there is always a key button alternative to holding down a mouse button. While some people usually have a plug-in mouse, sometimes you don't and with touch-based-button ultra books holding down left or right click can be a serious pain.

The same applies to clicking to aim in-game, old games like San Andreas coped with the on-button-mouse problem by having a key (Caps-Lock) to lock aim mode on or off (unless thats been added more recently to it) its a fairly neat thing for something that old.

Form a functionality position is always best to have alternatives to mouse-dependants. Same applies with a touch screen, easy to tap on something to select, left click press, but not easy to hold down right click (I'm thinking of one of those Lenovo Yoga things, which can actually run Reloaded).

Those are my thoughts.

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LeeBamber
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Posted: 9th Jun 2014 13:11
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Thanks for the input. I agree some great editing features on show, and I don't think it would take too much time to move in that direction a little more. For now, we'll get the hot fix out the door and then see where we are.

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Posted: 10th Jun 2014 10:10
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I delete often Objects or Markers with RMB, I only want to see the properties but it's very difficulty to do that. Mostly the Object is deleted and no Undo is available.
To see the Properties another Key than RMB would be usefull.
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DVader
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Posted: 10th Jun 2014 18:53 Edited at: 10th Jun 2014 18:54
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One thing I would like to ask added beyond what I have mentioned already is a fairly simple thing, which would make our lives a whole lot easier. We need to know the ID of each object in the map. In it's properties for instance, so we can script stuff easier. Currently I have to use smallg's prompt script to find out the index of objects so I can call them specifically within the game. At the minute, for some reason I am not sure of smallg's script is getting cut off at some point, stopping me from seeing object numbers I need later in the game. No idea what is causing it, it worked fine at one point, now seems to stop working so far into the map. I can probably get it to work, by disabling other scripts that MAY be conflicting, but it's a bit of a pain in the rear, especially as I can only test once before it crashes.



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Posted: 10th Jun 2014 19:01
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Quote: "One thing I would like to ask added beyond what I have mentioned already is a fairly simple thing, which would make our lives a whole lot easier. We need to know the ID of each object in the map. In it's properties for instance, so we can script stuff easier."


Putting the ID in the properties would probably not work since the value could change if you deleted or added objects. Unless I'm mistaken and these numbers are fixed no matter what edits you make, but I doubt it.

One thing you can do is add an init function to any entities that you want to access in script and then set a global variable for that entity's ID. That's what I've been doing so far.



You put the init function right before your main function and it only gets called once when the entity is created.

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Posted: 10th Jun 2014 23:45
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I don't see how having a entity value is impossible or wouldn't work in the editor. I have worked on many in game editors in the past for my own use. The object number is easy as pie. You wouldn't have access to alter it, just view it (although that is perfectly possible, just gives us the chance to break things). If you have deleted a prior object, the array would be reshuffled to suit on the fly, preferably keeping the id's the same to avoid breaking other things you have set up. If your script can get the entity value in a test game, TGC should be able to add it to the editors properties panel after all. It's not as if it has to run before the program to know which object number is which, that is set as soon as you place them. I'd be in favor of it showing you the number when you hover your mouse over it
The code you suggest looks a good way round it, but ultimately it should be a unique id in the editor you can see at a glance, rather than having to find it in a test game or save the values in an array yourself. One of Reloaded's selling points is ease of use and making scripting easier would be good all round.



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Posted: 11th Jun 2014 00:01 Edited at: 11th Jun 2014 00:02
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Right, it's possible and very easily so, but I was just saying that I don't think they do it that way currently and so it would probably be a big change for them, but I could be wrong. But even better than an ID would be a string name that you can use to reference the object by. Engines like Unity have this and it certainly makes it a whole lot easier. The reason it's better is then you don't have to go look for what the ID is because you're more likely to remember what you named it, if you are accustomed to naming your objects, than just an arbitrary ID.



Oh, and my suggestion for the init function was just a solution for our current situation and I would certainly prefer a way to get an entity by name over this hack solution.

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