Product Chat / Does it need to be so difficult to create characters?

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tomjscott
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Posted: 6th Jun 2014 02:27
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Quote: "Feel free to post them up if you got any."


I do, but not showing too much at this time. It is, after all, a contest. And I'm very competitive.

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TattieBoJangle
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Posted: 6th Jun 2014 02:39
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Nice job rolfy! good to see you managed it

that being said if reloaded don't come up with a way to use our own models without having to Re-rig them i for one will be disappointed.





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raymondlee306
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Posted: 6th Jun 2014 02:55
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I have been using Maya LT for my rigging and as a subscription holder I get access to the Autodesk Character Generator which takes hours out of the character creation time. I then use Ultimate Unwrap Pro to convert the FBX to an X file (because no one has written an X exporter for the MEL scripting as far as I could find). The model runs and looks fine in UUP and in Fragmotion but even messing with the scripts gives me issues with the frames not playing correctly at the right time (i.e. reloading when he should be running) or the gun pointing straight up when attached to an enemy. I guess animer could be used for this but I haven't bought it yet.

I think it would be great if the animations where not baked into the model, especially when using the stock skeleton, but where being pulled from an animation file within the engine. You could have the stock animations, custom animations01, custom animations02, etc. That way you could just rig a model to given skeleton and import it into the engine and tell the script which animation group to use with which model aslong asthe bones where named the same as what the animations are looking for.
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rolfy
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Posted: 6th Jun 2014 03:09 Edited at: 6th Jun 2014 03:34
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Quote: "that being said if reloaded don't come up with a way to use our own models without having to Re-rig them i for one will be disappointed."
I think the point here was my difficulty in getting these characters into Reloaded, They use an additional rig for the wings which caused more than a few issues for me, Remember these are my own models, rigs and animations...might have been just as difficult whatever the engine and I suspect now this was more of a .x export problem, single rig bipeds should be a breeze for me after doing these, making a 'floating' character using scripting to raise and lower is not so hard but all the 'flying' anims are in fact part of the biped animation.



This sort of character was next to useless in early Classic where the 'hit box' envelope was created at the pivot of the character on spawn and you had the issues of having to shoot beneath the character to get a hit, this was fixed with limb detection. There are numerous other things need to be considered when using anything other than a default biped

A funny thing happened on the way to the forum...
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TattieBoJangle
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Posted: 6th Jun 2014 03:47
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I understand it is a custom character and may need a bit of tweaking but i do believe they need to come up with something for example i have a character that works in 4 different engines that i have tried without much effort but with reloaded its a no go.

Also i believe there will be lots of users out there who have bought animated characters and have a collection over the years as such will they be able to use them i think this subject is a little unclear and the team need to give us a break down of what way it will be going and what we will and wont be able to do in the future.

I believe if reloaded want to keep it simple and easy to use like lee said in his interview he needs to make it support this and a bonus would be we could use x9 x10 models i know they are old but we still paid allot of money over the years would be a shame to waste them and i believe if reloaded was able to do this it would bring in more users who had x9 x10.

Walk,1429,1529
NPcDissapointed,1530,1634
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NPcExplanation,1760,1804
NPcPointingA,1805,1864
NPcLookingAround,1865,2040
NPcConversationShort,2041,2085
NPcSitDown,2125,2150

Anyway that's just my view on it





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rolfy
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Posted: 6th Jun 2014 04:01 Edited at: 6th Jun 2014 04:11
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I do understand completely, it won't do to have only a few select Artists capable of getting characters into the engine and whatever is said aabout the 'Character Creation Kit' it will still be limited to whatever is created for it. You cant pluck meshes and textures out of thin air and expect to just drop them in and go.



All the same Classic was no different when it came to creating character models and actually across the board it's a pretty small number who can actually do it whatever the engine. It should be easier to take a ready made custom character and simply import but there will always be some work on the users part to script these to make them work. I don't know how difficult it would be to get some sort of generic animation frame list to be accepted by any one engine to run all animation calls and move the model in the appropriate direction speed and stop call melee or crouch/fire etc. But as I see it maybe this the foundation for it you are already seeing with a hard coded and random animation system in Reloaded as it is now.





Not much has been said on why TGC have done things the way they have been as far as characters are and maybe they have a bigger plan for the long term



However all said and done it is still pretty difficult at this early stage to even get the beggars in there and never mind all the scripting it will require to get truly custom characters working...I do agree with all you say but am at this moment just relishing my small and insignificant little victory.



I will likely be complaining about something else tomorrow.

A funny thing happened on the way to the forum...
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LeeBamber
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Posted: 6th Jun 2014 10:46
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We will be supporting custom animation sets for sure. Just getting our basic character animation set finalized and getting a few characters in the software, then we can branch out to fully support custom characters that can tie into the native AI system. The demons are awesome by the way!

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TattieBoJangle
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Posted: 6th Jun 2014 17:53
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Thanks for the reply Lee i am glad to to see there will be support for custom characters will be interesting to see how you do this when the time comes





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Decoverse
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Posted: 8th Jun 2014 08:20
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The best way for Reloaded to succeed is by people creating good and successful games with it. I don't think that is possible without custom content/assets. How does a game stand out when it's using the same bad guys as everyone else.

Making it easy to add custom characters and weapons is critical. Some of us are even willing to pay artist to bring our character ideas to life. Unfortunately, the community here is still small (Compared to Unity, etc) and the handful of good artist here just don't have enough free time.

At a minimum, a few video tutorials using a few popular low-cost tools (AC3D, Daz3D, Milkshape) would help. I can't stress enough, how important this is.
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smallg
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Posted: 10th Jun 2014 00:45
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hah that's really cool, more great work from rolfy

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LeeBamber
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Posted: 10th Jun 2014 12:43
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The Zombie pack is based around the script system supporting custom character imports, so watch out for that release as a milestone to allowing you greater freedom in bringing in your own fully working characters. This will not be part of the AI subsystem that controls soldiers, but will be entirely script-able via LUA. An AI subsystem tie-in will come later for custom characters.

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tomjscott
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Posted: 10th Jun 2014 15:39
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Quote: " This will not be part of the AI subsystem that controls soldiers, but will be entirely script-able via LUA."


That's music to my ears. I've always felt we need control before the engine takes control for us. This is a positive step in that regard.

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Rafhalzer
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Posted: 10th Jun 2014 21:03
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Hi guys!

We already know the limitations for Reloaded characters (thanks bond1):
- 60 bones per draw call
- 3 bones per vertex
We need to write a program that converts a 3rd party character to Reloaded compatible character.
I tried to do it. Mender 2.0 FRR BETA 1 is attached.
How it works:
- if there is more then 60 bones per draw call, Mender disables the bones which affect the smallest number of vertices, these vertices are given to the parents of these bones;
- if there is more then 3 bones per vertex, Mender disables the bones over 3, and fixes the skin weights for these 3 bones.
Because I have no too much the 3rd party characters, I ask you to test BETA 1 version - anybody?

Rafhalzer

ANIMER - Character Animations Editor.

Edit and create your own animations of FPSC characters.

Supports DirectX and DBO formats.
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TattieBoJangle
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Posted: 10th Jun 2014 21:12
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I would like to test the beta Rafhalzer i have plenty characters





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Rafhalzer
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Posted: 10th Jun 2014 21:20
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Everybody are welcome TattieBoJangle!

Good luck!

ANIMER - Character Animations Editor.

Edit and create your own animations of FPSC characters.

Supports DirectX and DBO formats.
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rolfy
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Posted: 10th Jun 2014 21:36 Edited at: 10th Jun 2014 21:43
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Hi Rafhalzer, I will run one of the un-modified characters through this and see what happens.



Reloaded will load up and run characters over the limit sometimes with no problems, sometimes it really isn't having any of it, depends I think on the rig.



The wings on these characters have an additional set of bones, these are not separate from the biped but are 'extras'. Losing toes and finger bones helped with getting it all down to 59 bones, the original rig was around 84 bones.



In addition to this I have found that Reloaded does treat nubs as helpers and they are not added to the bone count as long as they are hidden on export.



The only problem I foresee with disabling bones and reattaching verts to the parent is, in the case of the wings for these characters, it may mean a serious loss of deformation with these not 'folding' etc as they should. I will run it through and see how it turns out



In my own case this is now a non issue and I will simply create my rigs to be Reloaded compatible but if helps you create a converter for others to get character models into their games then I will help as I can.



If it would help you further with this I would be happy to send you a character to test with

A funny thing happened on the way to the forum...
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TattieBoJangle
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Posted: 10th Jun 2014 21:53
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@Rafhalzer tried 3 characters and they come out invisible even if you set the texture in the fpe they are on the map as you bump into them you just cant see them





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tomjscott
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Posted: 10th Jun 2014 22:25
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I'll definitely give this beta a try when I get a chance. As you know I have many 3rd party models I'd like to convert. And thanks again, btw, for helping with all the ones I gave you up to this point.

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Posted: 11th Jun 2014 00:04
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Too bad FPSCR cannot import Mixamo characters. There are several character creators out there that export to FBX (or Collada) with animations. FBX import would change a lot of things.

Mixamo may be expensive, but you can create tons of characters with it.

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Rafhalzer
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Posted: 11th Jun 2014 08:36
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@rolfy

Quote: "The only problem I foresee with disabling bones and reattaching verts to the parent is, in the case of the wings for these characters, it may mean a serious loss of deformation with these not 'folding' etc as they should."


Yes,
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Posted: 11th Jun 2014 08:56
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Very interesting thread.. bit scary too lol considering I have many many different unique types of characters i was once working on for x9 that I have started improving to gear towards reloaded instead. I have yet to rig them. Lot of helpful tips here but also a bit of areas I'm a bit confused on but I guess we'll see what happens when I get down to those areas.

For now I'll stick making static entities. lol

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Dralel
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Posted: 12th Jun 2014 14:14
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So will there be a definitive software that can import and export FPSCR models?

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Rafhalzer
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Posted: 12th Jun 2014 17:05
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The first bug found and fixed! The character became invisible if it had less then 61 bones that affect vertices.
Thanks for TattieBoJangle.

New version (BETA 2) is attached.

ANIMER - Character Animations Editor.

Edit and create your own animations of FPSC characters.

Supports DirectX and DBO formats.

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tomjscott
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Posted: 12th Jun 2014 17:09
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@Rafhalzer, I was just trying to install the first beta and I got the following message:

The following applications are using files that need to be updated by Setup...

FPSC Map Editor

I have no idea why it would need to update files used b
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Posted: 12th Jun 2014 18:41
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@tomjscott

FPSC Map Editor uses Microsoft Visual C++ 2008 Redistributable and Mender wants to install it.
Nothing bad will happen

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tomjscott
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Posted: 12th Jun 2014 18:52
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OK, thanks. I just wanted to be sure of what was happening. With only 3 days left, I didn't want to break anything.

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Posted: 15th Jun 2014 11:58
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is there a biped & bip file available for download for the reloaded characters ?

cheers henry

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Posted: 15th Jun 2014 13:03
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I spoke to Lee about this and he said when the zombie characters come out adding our own characters will be alot easier and we can use our custom frames great news





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Posted: 15th Jun 2014 16:13
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I tried the new Mender Beta, but it didn't work for me on any of the 3rd party media I have. I don't have time to provide details or follow up right now. I need to finish up my comp entry today.

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Posted: 15th Jun 2014 16:33
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Great job Rolfy! I like your characters, hopefully you may end up putting them in the store at some point.
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Rafhalzer
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Posted: 17th Jun 2014 09:00
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@rolfy

Quote: "I will run one of the un-modified characters through this and see what happens."


Have you done it with Mender BETA 2?

ANIMER - Character Animations Editor.

Edit and create your own animations of FPSC
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Rafhalzer
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Posted: 20th Jun 2014 20:43
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The next bug found and fixed.

This time, thanks to tomjscott!

New version of Mender 2.0 BETA 3 is attached.

Try it to import 3rd party characters into FPSCR.

Each information about it will be welcomed!

Rafhalzer

ANIMER - Character Animations Editor.

Edit and create your own animations of FPSC characters.

Supports DirectX and DBO formats.

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LeeBamber
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Posted: 24th Jun 2014 10:50
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This tool is awesome! I had a quick play and converted the old AI character from Classic in a few minutes, made up a quick FPE for him, and presto, in Reloaded. You need to be a bit of an FPE expert however to ensure the character uses the fix rotation property, and I still need to do some code which will support 'different/custom' animation sets when using the Reloaded solider script, e.t.c. but it is encouraging to know we have a base of legacy character models to test the process of supporting non-Reloaded characters in the engine. Top stuff.

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Rafhalzer
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Posted: 26th Jun 2014 08:13
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Thanks for your opinion Lee.

I fixed the problem with multimaterials.
BETA 4 version is attached.

If you have a problem with a 3rd party character, open it and save in Mender 2.0 FRR, it will be converted to a format compatible with the FPSCR.

Rafhalzer

ANIMER - Character Animations Editor.

Edit and create your own animations of FPSC characters.

Supports DirectX and DBO formats.

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henry ham
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Posted: 28th Jun 2014 20:03
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ive made a custom character but im having issues

unrigged mesh in game

[img][/img]

rigged mesh ingame

[img][/img]

rigged mesh after running through mender

[img][/img]

any help or hints would be a big help !!!

cheers henry

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Rafhalzer
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Posted: 29th Jun 2014 10:28
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@henry ham

I'm very curious how this charactetr is constructed, and I'll analyze it very gladly.
I'll let you know what needs to change in the character or I'll release a new beta version of Mender.
Please send me this character:
[email]bodzio3d@gma
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henry ham
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Posted: 29th Jun 2014 11:02
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Rafhalzer

email sent thanks in advance

cheers henry

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Rafhalzer
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Posted: 30th Jun 2014 09:26
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Wow henry ham, that was a very difficult and interesting problem with skin weights!
Version beta 5 can handle it
Mender 2.0 FRR BETA 5 is attached.

Rafhalzer

ANIMER - Character Animations Editor.

Edit and create your own animations of FPSC characters.

Supports DirectX and DBO formats.

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henry ham
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Posted: 30th Jun 2014 09:48
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Quote: "Wow henry ham, that was a very difficult and interesting problem with skin weights!"


can you give me more details please so i wont make the same mistakes next time ?

Quote: "Version beta 5 can handle it
Mender 2.0 FRR BETA 5 is attached."


will give it a try when i get home from work

THANK YOU FOR YOUR TIME & EFFORT

cheers henry

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Rafhalzer
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Posted: 30th Jun 2014 12:04
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Quote: "can you give me more details please so i wont make the same mistakes next time ?"


In your file in skin weights section, some of vertices were assigned to one bone several times.
For example (imaginary) - for a neck bone there is:
vertex number 1001 with weight 0.25
vertex number 1001 with weight 0.30
vertex number 1001 with weight 0.40
Should be for compatibility with FPSCR:
vertex number 1001 with weight 0.95

But don't worry Henry, you can create your characters as you want - just use Mender and it fix everything.

Cheers,
Rafhalzer

ANIMER - Character Animations Editor.

Edit and create your own animations of FPSC characters.

Supports DirectX and DBO formats.
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Posted: 30th Jun 2014 21:08
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henryham

What software are you using to create the models?



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henry ham
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Posted: 30th Jun 2014 21:17
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Quote: "henryham

What software are you using to create the models?"

I use 3ds Max 2009

Cheers henry

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LeeBamber
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Posted: 30th Jun 2014 23:54
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@Rafhalzer : Thanks for helping out!! MENDER is turning into quite the miracle worker! I don't suppose it can apply non-identity scaling matrices to raw geometry (thus eliminating the need for a scaling term in the model matrices)

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Posted: 1st Jul 2014 00:07 Edited at: 1st Jul 2014 00:49
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You know? A great little program just to apply such matrices to a model's raw geometry, thus eliminating non-identity matrices would be terrific! Or if some transformation matrices are needed for animation?, then at the very least, a program to remove the unneeded layers of matrices. If they're not used for animation, then I can't fathom why the heck they include such matrices in model files to begin with. I'm assuming they're there for some purpose other than to add a layer of obscurity??



I've tried to do something similar in DarkGDK to ultimately center and scale the model myself as I choose - since different authors do all that differently, I like to calibrate everything so its all on the same page. But every once in a while, there's a model that has some really funky configuration that doesn't survive the process intact. Apparently some hidden matrix is present, or something. Although I was doing the transformations myself, before I discovered this simple little equation that's used (which may fix all that):



see Matrix Transforms:

http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/bb206269%28v=vs.85%29.aspx
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Posted: 1st Jul 2014 04:15
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Rafhalzer
This are 3 pictures from diferent files.

The first one is a MAKEHUMAN file with the "game rig" (32bones) I exported from MAKEHUMAN in fbx format, import in Ultimate Unrwap and export to .x.Imported in Mender first, and after this to ANIMER.
I have no problems with the geoometry, but the animations from Masked Soldier not work...



the second file is from Makehuman too, but with " basic rig" ( 73 bones) ,exported in fbx from MAKEHUMAN, imported in Ultimate Unrwap and exported to .x from there, to Mender.When I open in ANIMER, the geometry is broked before I import the animation...The animation not work too.



The third model is a original modeled and riged from me, animated in IClone.I exported from 3DExchange in fbx format.I open in Ultimate Unrwap and exported in .x.
After imported ok in Mender, I open in Animer and load Masker Solider animations.
The geometry is broken and the model looks twisted, after I import the animations...


I believe there is some problems when I export from Ultimate Unrwap, tried many settings with no luck...I exported all models without animations,
Should I send you the files to investigate?
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Rafhalzer
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Posted: 1st Jul 2014 08:52
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@0Alemar0

About animations:
The command 'Import Animations from Reloaded Character' works only for characters with biped FPSC Classic skeleton.
If your character has other skeleton (for example Makehuman), to import Masked Soldier animations you shou
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LeeBamber
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Posted: 2nd Jul 2014 18:23
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When the Zombie pack comes out, you will see how you can get the non-FPSC character models walking and moving in the engine

PC SPECS: Windows 7 Ultimate 64-bit, Intel Core i7 920 (PASSMARK:5008), NVIDIA Geforce 9600 GT GPU (PASSMARK:752) , 6GB RAM

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henry ham
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Posted: 2nd Jul 2014 20:30
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a big thanks to Rafhalzer & smallg i now have my custom character (stephanie) ingame & working with a civilian script ,she will stand at idle or follow waypoints.
just need to wait for the fix to the engine before i upload her to the store as when characters follow waypoints right now they seem to walk or run strangely



cheers henry

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rolfy
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Posted: 2nd Jul 2014 20:35 Edited at: 2nd Jul 2014 20:49
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Well done Henry, it aint easy is it?



I reckon it will all come together as it goes along, at this stage it can be expected that custom characters will be the most difficult to get in there working as they should



You should post that vid to the gallery, all these little milestone achievements should be kept somewhere. Makes me proud to be a part of this community that batters away at it and helps each other out till they get it working

A funny thing happened on the way to the forum...
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henry ham
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Posted: 2nd Jul 2014 21:05
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Quote: "Well done Henry, it aint easy is it?"

No mate its not, that's my biggest hurdle so far & couldn't have done it without the help of our community. That's why I stay here

Cheers henry

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