Product Chat / [LOCKED] Do you feel relaoded key should activate classic.

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s4real
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Posted: 21st Apr 2014 15:22
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I think it would of been a good idea that everyone who purchased reloaded that there key would activate fpsc free version or gets a key to activate it.



This would not only take some pressure of TGC but people would have something to use and play with while they wait for reloaded.





Its only an idea.



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DennisW
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Posted: 21st Apr 2014 16:07 Edited at: 22nd Apr 2014 19:16
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It sounds like a good idea. I wonder what the powers to be think? Then again now that Windows 98 is not backed any more I still don't think they will give it away. I would think that the main deciding factor would be if they are still getting sale's on classic. Myself I ended up buying it four times. That was through different sales promotions. I do think you are right about getting some of the pressure off. It sure is a big chunk of food for thought.

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Jerry Tremble
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Posted: 22nd Apr 2014 05:17
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I think it's a great idea! I have a couple licenses myself, but as a promotional tool, it might shut some of the whiners up as they could see what was already possible in the past, allow them to develop their assets and (kinda) test them, and give them a little confidence about where this engine is headed. While it's not technically abandonware (and will hopefully not be in my lifetime) as of yet, when Reloaded matures it may as well be. There is still one thing that kinda bothers me that it can do that I haven't even seen mentioned in the Reloaded features: Go underground. Sure, you could fake it rather easily, but it would involve a LOT of unnecessary extra polygons!

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LeeBamber
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Posted: 22nd Apr 2014 12:29
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I am curious how many Reloaded users do NOT have the Classic version. Could you post here if you feel giving our Classic to Reloaded pledgers would be a good idea, or a bad idea? Let the community decide!

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xplosys
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Posted: 22nd Apr 2014 16:15
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I can't see the idea as being good or bad. To me, it makes no difference as I own both. I would be more interested Lee, to hear your perspective from a business point of view. Do you feel that Reloaded will make X9 obsolete, or do you see a future for both?



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KeithC
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Posted: 22nd Apr 2014 16:47
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Here's an example of why this is a good idea: https://community.thefoundry.co.uk/discussion/topic.aspx?f=83&t=87006



Here you have someone who has no experience with TGC products (more than likely); being able to get Classic for free, to mess about with, by buying into ReLoaded...is a win-win for him and his son. If we want to bring in new users, that have never tried either version of FPSC before; this is a good way to entice them.
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DVader
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Posted: 22nd Apr 2014 16:52
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I already have classic, but haven't used it in some time. Never liked the scripting in it (Lua is much better), or the AI. The only AI that seemed okay tended to crash out fairly regularly, so I never made much beyond a couple of one level demo's. I also used it to make maps for DB Pro which was a useful function.



I think if people get enough useable scripts to use in Reloaded to start making games rather than test levels, they would be happy enough anyway. I am tempted to reinstall it, so I can see what a lot of these packs I own are like that I have never seen (as they don't work in Reloaded).



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synchromesh
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Posted: 22nd Apr 2014 17:37
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@Lee



The fact you are considering it means you probably don't mind giving it to pledgers so why not use it as a reloaded selling point and advertise the fact you get the the original FPS Creator classic free.. It can only boost sales at worst


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RustyNuts
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Posted: 22nd Apr 2014 19:12
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I brought classic as soon as I could pre order it all those years ago!!! I stopped using it as soon as reloaded beta ver 1.01 came out and I honestly don't think I will ever use it again!! I've used it and for me it's served it's purpose, but I'm now ready for bigger and better things which I believe Reloaded is going deliver. I have no objection to TGC giving away free keys as I hope people who have never used can enjoy it as much as I did!!!!
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tommy8
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Posted: 22nd Apr 2014 19:36
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rather than giving us FPSC free (which ive owned years now anyway) i would prefer if the .6 patch came with the FPSC classic stock assets and characters bundled in and FPSCR ready. Not sure how difficult that would have been, considering many of the more capable users here are already modifying the assets themselves for that purpose. Would have stopped some of the complaints, and given non-FPSC owners access to the old stuff without having to provide a free program.
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KeithC
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Posted: 22nd Apr 2014 20:10
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If I remember right; a free copy of Classic was one of the perks of the original Kickstarter Campaign. So I don't see a real big deal, in giving it away with a ReLoaded Pledge/Purchase.
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tommy8
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Posted: 22nd Apr 2014 20:21
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Not sure why you would go back to using classic if you own reloaded, and besides, the classic assets arent automatically reloaded ready.
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KeithC
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Posted: 22nd Apr 2014 20:59
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You're missing the point. Some people have NEVER used classic before....or any TGC product for that matter. Classic is perfectly capable (as has been shown) of making a complete game right now. ReLoaded is not, currently, able to do so. While they're waiting for more functionality/stability to come to ReLoaded, they can get going right now in classic.
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tommy8
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Posted: 22nd Apr 2014 21:02
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good point, with reloaded though it offers a lot more creative freedom. I think for people who own both programs it would be nice to have all of the assets under one roof.
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RustyNuts
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Posted: 22nd Apr 2014 21:21
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I agree with you KeithC, and as a added bonus there's a forum of nearly 10 years of help,tips,media plus lots more.
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s4real
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Posted: 22nd Apr 2014 21:27 Edited at: 22nd Apr 2014 21:30
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Quote: " with reloaded though it offers a lot more creative freedom"




Classic has a lot of creative freedom as most the forum users don't even use about 25% of the engine because they don't know or can't script what they want the engine to do.



Classic has load of advanced systems in it and with mods has even more :-



Some features that can be done in fpsc classic :-

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-hlckJgLCOI



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jIrNvJmXj6g



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=svjQuv76nFk



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wsvTkq1GgwE





I just feel with playing around with classic it would give people a good feel and can complete a game while waiting for reloaded.



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tommy8
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Posted: 22nd Apr 2014 21:40 Edited at: 22nd Apr 2014 21:42
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the bioshock one is quite clever i grant you, but with FPSCR you could probably make an actual underwater city rather than creating a facade of one using animated wallpaper.



What i meant about creative freedom is the ability to use an expansive outdoor environment to create more free roaming games. FPSC classic wasnt designed with outdoor games in mind. I hope by the time that the gold master copy of FPSCR is released we can have access to an even greater area of ground.
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synchromesh
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Posted: 22nd Apr 2014 21:59
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Heres one that shows it off and no doubt it still has more potential !!



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DOtwC4wn8fo
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tommy8
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Posted: 22nd Apr 2014 23:42 Edited at: 22nd Apr 2014 23:45
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that looks pretty i won't deny, but graphical quality was never my main problem with FPSC classic. The program just doesnt get to grips with open world environments in the same way that FPSCR seems to, or i at least hope will once it approaches full release.



I think there are still big problems with both programs as they stand, for example if we're honest none of the NPC characters from either program will pass the Turing test. That isnt to knock TGC's work but an example of an area i hope is developed.
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s4real
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Posted: 22nd Apr 2014 23:56
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Before we go to far away from the point of the post as I feel tommy8 not getting the point at all here.



The point is that when you purchase reloaded you can have something to play with and build some games, many people like yourself can jump into reloaded as you know the basic format all ready this would give people the same chance.



And big worlds can be made in classic with the right know how and skills.



Why you think the source is open source you limit is your own skills.



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tommy8
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Posted: 23rd Apr 2014 00:09 Edited at: 23rd Apr 2014 00:13
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not everyone has the time and/or finances to study or ability to become super talented programmers or super talented artists or whatever. I suffer from dyscalculia so i stink at programming. I love the way that reloaded is seeking to kick down the barriers to entry for people who lack the skills or finances but nonetheless have great, open world game ideas that they just want to get in and construct. It is a noble project and i hope it continues to go from strength to strength. Thats why I put my seventy quid forward.



FPSC while it eliminated some of the restrictions, was restrictive in that it was pretty difficult to create much other than a generic on rails FPS unless you had the ability to modify the scripting, as you say. I think that FPSCR, especially as its encorporating Oculus rift support will increase the number of genres the software can develop. Thats my 2 cents, make of it what you will.
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Posted: 23rd Apr 2014 02:26 Edited at: 23rd Apr 2014 12:55
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Okay here's my say:



As I have noticed the pirating of x9 is on the rise and its becoming more and more frequently talked about on our Facebook groups where illegal sharing of x9 is occurring. I've noticed that the majorly of these people are actually awaiting Reloads completion and are in the meantime using x9 or trying to gain access to using it. We could only assume these same people have pledged a bronze, silver or even gold Reloaded trier.



I'd suggestion either allowing for pledging members of Reloaded to have access to x9 full version. Or make x9 free (But keep the store active) - if that is a wise commercial decision to help promote Reloaded.



I think something does need to be done to reduce the piracy going on though involving x9 (classic). Its becoming frustrating attempting to help people out in the forums with issues when you find out its all because they've illegal downloaded some buggy old version of FPSC off a torrent.

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Posted: 23rd Apr 2014 04:27
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In fact, all backers should already be entitled to FPSC Classic since it was the lowest tier award on Kickstarter: Pledge £10 or more - Full download version of the software that started it all "FPS Creator classic" and was to be included with all higher awards.



I have never used nor purchased FPSC Classic, but would certainly enjoy having it to play around with, and wished this from the start of my pledge. As a reminder, TGC gave full copies of AGK to AGK V2 backers, and AGK is only a couple years old itself (versus a decade for FPSC:C).

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Emrys
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Posted: 23rd Apr 2014 09:37
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I bought classic years ago as well but for anyone that hasn't, it would be great if you want to make some games and learn lots while reloaded is being made.



I think classic and Reloaded could co. exist anyway. There is a wealth of knowledge and assets for it already so we might as well make use of it.







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Scene Commander
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Posted: 23rd Apr 2014 10:09
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Some good points here.



There is a team meeting today, and I've pointed this thread out to Rick. So all being well, it'll get discussed.



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synchromesh
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Posted: 23rd Apr 2014 12:20
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Quote: "I'd suggestion either allowing for pledging members of Reloaded to have access to x9 full version. Or make x9 free (But keep the store active) - if that is a wise commercial decision to help promote Reloaded."




That's sounds sensible... Also if it is given away free to all it could pay to have the free download here only and maybe a new small section for FPC Creator classic on this forum....Just an idea I don't know how hard that would be to do



It would be very probable if people came here to download and talk about classic they would most probably upgrade to reloaded..



Just an idea ?
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s4real
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Posted: 23rd Apr 2014 16:09 Edited at: 23rd Apr 2014 16:13
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@tommy8 :- You gone way off topic on this thread so please keep on topic at hand about given a free version of fpsc to all people who purchased reloaded.



This is not a thread about how good you think reloaded is or will be.



Thanks for your reply
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Posted: 23rd Apr 2014 20:16
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I will say no and disagree to giving it away for free with fpscR. but if a must to boost the sales of FpscR then only gold pledge should be able to get fpsc with fpscR for free.



my reason for no is it makes no different between using fpsc and fpscR as fpscR will be more advance and use different type of scripting and will allow the user do more with it. fpscR is about going forward and being easy to use at the same time. so this mean if you have never made a game in your life it will be easy to learn with fpscR just as it was with fpsc. you already get free model packs with fpscR and more so there is no point for TGC to waste their time for adding anything else on the list of things you get with fpscR.



no other game engine gives us this much stuff with their software and TGC has been more than just fair about what comes with fpscR. when fpscR is done it will be one of the best game engines to use for making games and people are going to be like you only payed $30 to $100 for this and even at a $100 you can sell your games.



when this engine is done I wonder what will tgc think it's worth then. more then a $100 I can tell you that.

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Posted: 23rd Apr 2014 21:28 Edited at: 23rd Apr 2014 21:49
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Quote: " Could you post here if you feel giving our Classic to Reloaded pledgers would be a good idea, or a bad idea? Let the community decide!"




There really isn't anything to decide, let alone discuss. You had posted on your Kickstarter page the following:



Quote: "

Pledge £10 or more



Full download version of the software that started it all "FPS Creator classic".

Estimated delivery: Dec 2012

"




To myself, this means that if I pledge £10 then I would also receive Classic (not that it really matters as I have it already). The only question which you did not spell out is whether this full download version is actually the free version or an actual full version plus key. If your offer was for the free version only, you should have spelled that out; if you were offering the full version of classic to your pledgers, then this thread is pointless.



However, that was Kickstarter... One must assume things have changed including the original "offers".



On your main page now, you don't even mention offering Classic to those pledging to you. Since classic no longer has the "focus", what harm is there to offer it to your pledgers (at whatever level you deem valuable- gold, silver, bronze). You did the same for x10, did you not? The x10 key will work in x9, so why not something similar. After all, classic will fade as Reloaded becomes the norm (so some say). This way, using classic is a good "jump point" to a beginner in learning how the engine works.



There's no problem that can't be solved without applying a little scripting.
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Posted: 23rd Apr 2014 21:57 Edited at: 23rd Apr 2014 21:59
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Quote: "There really isn't anything to decide, let alone discuss. You had posted on your Kickstarter page the following:"






Quote: "Pledge £10 or more Full download version of the software that started it all "FPS Creator classic". Estimated delivery: Dec 2012"




As the kickstarter never succeeded and your pledge was not taken then nobody gets anything ?



Its ludicrous to think your still entitled to the rewards if the kickstarter does not succeed and no pledges are taken...The crowd funding now is a completely different ballgame.



It never has nor never will work that way ..
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rolfy
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Posted: 23rd Apr 2014 22:18 Edited at: 23rd Apr 2014 22:36
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In my opinion Classic is, and always will be, the easiest to use 3d game maker out there. It is a great entry level game making tool, whatever it's drawbacks and Reloaded is already shaping up to be a more complex beast.



Take scripting alone, fpi is an amazingly easy scripting language t learn and gets people over that first hurdle in learning.



It's a no-brainer however that it needs to be officially finalised, giving it out free and then leaving folks to search out the latest unofficial updates etc, will give you some headaches down the line.



There is a huge amount of information on the old forums which could do with an injection of new users. Now we all know why it was so important to put proper info into thread titles so they can be found in search.



I think it's a great idea but it needs a little finishing up first.



For those who have used Classic I wouldn't expect you to go backwards now, but for newer users, learning the old will be a great help in figuring out the new, and you can create a great finished game with it. Which is the whole point for users who will pledge for the new rather than buy the old, or wait till it's at a more finished state before pledging.
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Posted: 23rd Apr 2014 22:36
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Quote: "Its ludicrous to think your still entitled to the rewards if the kickstarter does not succeed and no pledges are taken...The crowd funding now is a completely different ballgame."




I already own classic and could care less, but there are some that still are under the impression that it was plastered on a kickstart page and that drew them in and they would get it, only to then see the kickstarter diminish when the "mysterious backer" stepped in. Communication is the key here, and I think that TGC could have stepped up again to make things clear for those that had/have confusion. Besides, I had said in my post above "However, that was Kickstarter... One must assume things have changed including the original "offers".". If people are confused and thinking that the previous offers are still valid, then whose fault is that?



Offer classic to those that pledge, or don't. If you do, make sure you spell it out whether they get the free version or the actual full version. This way there is no confusion, no one crying foul. It still serves as a great start for those wanting to get into this field, and certainly still has much potential.



There's no problem that can't be solved without applying a little scripting.
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Posted: 23rd Apr 2014 23:22
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Quote: "If people are confused and thinking that the previous offers are still valid, then whose fault is that?

"




I see what your on about but nobody is confused ....The thread was just called "Do you feel reloaded key should activate classic."

It was a question and I think KeithC mentioned it was going to be given away free on the kickstarter anyway so why not.



But certainly no one is complaining ...In fact most of us think its a good idea to generate more backers
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Posted: 23rd Apr 2014 23:42 Edited at: 23rd Apr 2014 23:43
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Quote: "As the kickstarter never succeeded and your pledge was not taken then nobody gets anything ?



Its ludicrous to think your still entitled to the rewards if the kickstarter does not succeed and no pledges are taken...The crowd funding now is a completely different ballgame."




Not really. The pledge system put in place after Kickstarter was always said to be an extension thereof. The original press statement announcing the internal pledge system made it clear that such pledges would be put toward reaching the stretch goals described on the original Kickstarter page. It is also indicated that the pledge system is "just like Kickstarter..." When I pledged Gold (via Kickstarter and later via TGC's own pledge system) for the exact same price ($100) I expected that all awards would likewise match. I assumed it was just an oversight that FPSC:Classic wasn't included for new backers but I never bothered to ask about it.

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tommy8
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Posted: 24th Apr 2014 00:02
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i've nothing against FPSC being given away freely to reloaded license holders, quite the contrary, would be useful if i ever lose the hard copy of my classic disc. However I would like to see more of the FPSC classic work going towards augmenting the FPSCR experience, particularly in regard to transferring the classic asset library over to reloaded.
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synchromesh
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Posted: 24th Apr 2014 01:28
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Quote: "Not really. The pledge system put in place after Kickstarter was always said to be an extension thereof. The original press statement announcing the internal pledge system made it clear that such pledges would be put toward reaching the stretch goals described on the original Kickstarter page. It is also indicated that the pledge system is "just like Kickstarter..." When I pledged Gold (via Kickstarter and later via TGC's own pledge system) for the exact same price ($100) I expected that all awards would likewise match. I assumed it was just an oversight that FPSC:Classic wasn't included for new backers but I never bothered to ask about it."




I stand corrected then..



Apologies to Blackfox ...
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synchromesh
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Posted: 24th Apr 2014 01:37
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@tommy8



Many of the assets in the model packs if you own them can be used easily in reloaded and there are loads ...Not so much from the default FPS Creators editors.... But your not missing that much.. Segments are pretty useless ... The characters
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tommy8
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Posted: 24th Apr 2014 05:58 Edited at: 24th Apr 2014 05:59
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I'm not certain i agree about not missing much. A lot of people keep referring to the large base of support and information in the FPSC forum and community. What of the large library of DLC for FPSC on the store too?



I don't mean to derail your thread, (HINT - I agree with you) I just feel that if we are talking about unlocking the FPSC license for Reloaded users lets also talk about the content available for it and converting it to an FPSCR friendly format.
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Jerry Tremble
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Posted: 24th Apr 2014 06:20
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WOW! It was almost 100 degrees here today yet I swear I could feel heat from my monitor just reading some of those posts! The question was quite simple. The answers were sometimes getting quite hot as they strayed from the topic! I backed Reloaded on the Kickstarter and I also have at least a couple licenses for Classic through various promotions, as well as 30+ model packs. The idea of licensing of Classic is geared toward newcomers; if you already have it, fine, more power to you, you are not new!!! The idea is to get people interested and have something to work with as Reloaded is developed. The assets work fine (segments excluded, of course) when transferred with a little bit of work. I think some may feel slighted because they paid for Classic and now Reloaded, therefore everybody else should, or that somehow people would be forced to use Classic over Reloaded. Get over yourself! The abilities of the engine are not in question. The goal is to attract more interest and knowledge about the products and the use thereof, and to keep TGC providing and improving on the products that they have.

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AuShadow
GameGuru TGC Backer
10
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Location: Australia
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Posted: 24th Apr 2014 07:58
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I purchased classic not all that long ago after backing reloaded but honestly I see no reason it couldn't be given for free as say part of the gold or even silver pledge, we all know we buy something and 6-12 months later people will be buying it cheaper or free its nothing for people to get upset about. And it may well attract more people which is good for EVERYONE. More people more funding more content.

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wizard of id
3D Media Maker
18
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Joined: 16th Jan 2006
Playing: CSGO
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Posted: 24th Apr 2014 08:46
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I agree with rolfy, give classic, or rather offer it really cheap to the reloaded backers after the kick starter.



I am a reloaded gold user, and fully vested in reloaded now, it's a rather pointless offer, considering I already have two copies of classic now.



There is already a FPSC free version, isn't that enough, providing a full product that isn't going to be used very long, serves no purpose, the free version is more that enough to teach some fundamentals of the editor usage and entity use, reloaded is completely different box of cereal. Honestly what is the point ?
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LeeBamber
TGC Lead Developer
24
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Joined: 21st Jan 2000
Location: England
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Posted: 24th Apr 2014 11:18
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I think it's fair to say the Reloaded product is a significant departure from where the Classic product left off, and there is a concern that adding this old product to the pledge bundle would mix the message for new users. As Wizard points out, the free version of classic already available is more than capable of giving users something extra to play about with and is a perfect ambassador for Classic. For clarity, we will keep the pledge bundles focused on Reloaded, and the future of game creation

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