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FPS Creator Reloaded / Artists perspective on Reloaded

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rolfy
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Posted: 19th Oct 2013 00:19
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As an artist I have kept my peace for a while now concerning attitude from both TGC and Users expectations of what Reloaded is going to be about. I doubt many of you have considered media so far in favour of 'features' and haven't given much thought to 'ease of use' which made Classic so popular (it certainly wasn't the engine according to most users around here) aside from the fact that it was a carrot where previous media packs would continue to be usable in Reloaded.

Here's some facts.

Reloaded is not some 'new' technology that will require a degree in rocket science to create media for, if it does then you will find that you have very limited assets to use in your games.

However,the switch to LUA scripting will mean a lot of your exclusive TGC assets will be provided by a very select few artists who are willing to learn the language. Otherwise you are now looking at using media (particularly characters) which you will have to script yourself, putting Reloaded in the same corner as UDK or Unity for example. Considering the amount of users I have seen professing their need for a 'more advanced and less buggy engine' who hopped over to UDK only to find they couldn't actually create any games without a 'team', read this as...."I cant get my head around it, it's too complicated....I am an artist not a coder....I am a coder not an artist" and it becomes more clear that you cant have it all ways. And for coders who cant model the fact that there are just as many assets available for all engines out there but you have to dig into the models animations etc and write your own AI, then it becomes too much like real work.

I am not trying to put people off or down here and may be one of those willing to learn a new language for my media, provided you all think it's good enough for Reloaded, otherwise I will just hop over to Unity Store and sell it there where they don't have such high faluting ideas of what 'quality' is. I just want to make it clear that there are already engines out there, which, as I just pointed out, are beyond even 'above average' users to get a fully working game out of.

In fact I am all for a balanced but more advanced FPSCR. We already have FPSC Classic, which should not be written off or abandoned by TGC or Users alike as it is still the best 'new entry' engine available. But if all is concentrated on Reloaded then you have an engine which is basically in competition with other engines. Which are free for those who simply play around and a license to pay for the more 'serious' commercial developer.

If TGC intend to make FPSCR as complex to use as UDK whilst dropping all support and future media packs for Classic then they may just shoot themselves in the foot and lose out with both Classic and Reloaded.
You need to consider the fact that all the media packs you have purchased for FPSC will not work in Reloaded and that some of us who create media feel put off by the attitude towards us when we are expected to 'make it so' without recompense and our media is deemed 'unfit' for Reloaded because it doesn't 'come up to standards'.

If TGC drop all support and discontinue media packs for FPSC Classic in favour of only Reloaded,and I am incapable of meeting the high quality expected then I will just step aside and create for a 'less fussy' engine...like UDK

I await the beta's eagerly then I will come back and let folks know if I feel intimidated enough to quit and hang up my brushes
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Nomad Soul
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Posted: 19th Oct 2013 00:38 Edited at: 19th Oct 2013 00:39
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Rolfy

Sorry but you are the last person that should be saying this.

If I'm not mistaken there is only 1 person on this forum that uses baked shadows from 3DMax to make FPSC games. Everyone has praised your work in this field and nobody else has been able to even copy it let alone better it.

Reloaded has real time dynamic shadows which means anyone can create some models, import them into the engine and create a nice scene with amazing visuals and shadows. You are complaining the barrier to entry is somehow higher in Reloaded when in fact its the opposite. Clearly you weren't satisfied with the functionality or quality of FPSC otherwise why go to all the trouble of doing everything in 3DSMax?

People are reading far too much into the proposal to use LUA. This is a really good thing for FPSC and to compare this with the barrier to entry in UDK is completely unrealistic. It won't be anywhere near that much of a step up in learning curve.

I don't buy your argument here Rolfy. We should be celebrating the progress being made in Reloaded and as you said if people want to stay in FPSC classic land they have that option.

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uman
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Posted: 19th Oct 2013 00:42 Edited at: 19th Oct 2013 00:50
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Hi Rolfy,

As you will probably know I would agree with many of your comments, particularly with the comments regarding position in the market and other well known popular engines.

There is a trend towards seeing Reloaded in the same light.

I may be completely wrong but I do not see it. I do not think that Reloaded will ever or can possibly compete with some of these popular engines which are as far as I can see and tell from my own experience in a completely different league altogether and will remain well ahead indefinitely. No way will you catch up to their level of standards and what they offer overall should not try and do so. I fully agree in that respect and in targeting a range of users in a place in the market that Reloaded can gain substantial additional market share which would presumably be good for all concerned.

But what do I know. Nothing. Time as always will tell.

I am afraid I know little of what issues all the FPSC independent media makers will face and whom which to be fair have given long and steadfast support to TGC and the community for which we are all I am sure extremely thankful and grateful. Were are indebted to everyone who has supported FPSC over so many long years to help bring us to where we are today - wherever that is.

TGC will have their own evolving plan and will hopefully guide Reloaded in the right direction that is of benefit to as many indie developer users as is possible as well as benefiting the actual products as well as TGC.

I do hope that we can all move forward together and further gain additional supporters who will become friends as so many have become here over many years, despite sometimes differences of opinion.

Nomad,

I also Agree with many of your comments and as said do not know why creating models, media for Reloaded should be particularly any more difficult than for FPSC classic but then I don't know a great deal about that and any advanced relationship to scripting if any.

If it causes issue with users and creating media or simply using models in their game then it would clearly be of concern as we don't need issues we can do without. Benefits and advantages and not disadvantages are whats required.



"You don't see 'im, till 'im come callin"
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rolfy
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Posted: 19th Oct 2013 00:48 Edited at: 19th Oct 2013 00:54
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Quote: "You are complaining the barrier to entry is somehow higher in Reloaded when in fact its the opposite."
I am in fact referring to comments made by TGC in private e-mails to certain artists around here, so wont quote these. I am being sarcastic with a capital'S'. Personally I believe my media is good enough for any engine, I say that without any arrogance.

However, if you think it will be a simple matter of taking models straight out of the box and dropping these into Reloaded with the same ease you had with Classic then have at it

I am not against changing the scripting language, however, you need to be aware that now previous media packs will require some work on your part, or the artists before distribution. It was promised that old packs would be compatible and I don't think this should be overlooked when discussing it, as seems to be the case.

I just want folks to be fully aware of what they are arguing for.
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uman
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Posted: 19th Oct 2013 00:54
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Is the concern here that older model packs would need updating with new script files by media creators, users or both?

"You don't see 'im, till 'im come callin"
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rolfy
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Posted: 19th Oct 2013 01:00
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Quote: "Is the concern here that older model packs would need updating with new script files by media creators, users or both?"

Not only that but you will require that Artists learn the new scripting language, shader requirements etc. This wont be a problem as far I can see personally but may put many of the others off and you will see a real drop in both free and commercial media available putting Reloaded into the same grey media area as other engines, which btw have many assets available but few that actually use them as it entails the coder having to learn new skills they didnt expect to.

Again I am not against it, just wanted to throw my two cents in
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Nomad Soul
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Posted: 19th Oct 2013 01:03 Edited at: 19th Oct 2013 01:07
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Its a fair point on the model packs. I agree.

There will definately be some work involved for anyone that wants to use characters from model packs as the Reloaded bi-ped has changed but I don't see there being too many issues with static entities.

I think we need to treat this as a separate issue though. We had the same thing with X10 and it took some time but eventually most of the model packs were made compatible and we just need to work this through.

For now lets just rejoice that Reloaded is shaping up to be a fantastic game engine which can deliver the kinds of features that were previously only available in engines like UDK which people can now access in a product like FPSC.

I don't think we will be seeing the last of you for a while Rolfy. You are part of the furniture now like the rest of us.

Edit - From what I can tell if you can make a bump map and a specular map and apply a shader in FPSC then you can make something in Reloaded. If parallax mapping is used that might take a bit longer for people to grasp but not much.

We've all had to struggle with things like rigging and animating if we really want to make some unique assets. I don't see any change or drop in asset creation for Reloaded to be honest.

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rolfy
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Posted: 19th Oct 2013 01:22 Edited at: 19th Oct 2013 01:27
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Meh! It is just TGC getting ahead of themselves, I know waffle when I see it, particularly when it concerns my field of expertise. They need to calm down a little and respect the fact that Reloaded wont survive for long without the Artists who provided quality media for FPSC Classic for so many years, personally I feel a little insulted even though the worst of it wasn't directed at me.
Many even took their engine to whole new levels with innovative ideas and the same will go for Reloaded, it's the users who are the designers that make their product look good and they should remember that when they ask for opinions and give complete information on what the actual results will be if implemented.

They also need to step back and put a little time into finishing up Classic and look at how they see it continuing to be a viable level entry software for the future, including media.
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uman
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Posted: 19th Oct 2013 01:26 Edited at: 19th Oct 2013 01:29
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Rolfy,

Ah I see.

I should have realised that of course.

I presume then that may possibly mean and I have had some indication of this that in future not only existing media/models but new ones will be more labour intensive to create and perhaps then cost more to the end purchaser and that they will be potentially in short supply for game makers dependent upon who is prepared to make them and at what cost and additionally it may be very difficult or even impossible for general users - people like me who are not experts in this area to create their own bespoke models and instead being forced to pay others to have models to use in their games or have none or not having the ones they want or need because they cant make them themselves and no one else has made suitable ones? Is that a fair assumption?

If so that's not a benefit for sure at least not particularly to end users who often wont have enough choices but perhaps good for TGC and media makers in some instances.

Overall not good for end users if that's the case but perhaps I am completely wrong there?

Not helpful certainly from any point of view when considering any backward compatibilities and a greater demand on users in the future the extents of which are unknown as much as many other things.

Still I am not sure of an easy solution suitable for all even at best. I guess there is not an ideal one for all concerned.

Whatever problems and issues for any of us are not wanted if they can be avoided.

I am sure there will be a lot more of those yet to come yet by far before Reloaded comes to any kind of conclusion, guaranteed.

"You don't see 'im, till 'im come callin"
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cobracon2
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Posted: 19th Oct 2013 01:30
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If the model packs I purchased don't work in reloaded I'm going to be miffed. I bought them with the understanding that they would. Not cool at all.
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Nickydude
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Posted: 19th Oct 2013 01:34 Edited at: 19th Oct 2013 01:34
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Surely the model packs should work else why would they give 10 FPSC classic model packs away if pledging at Gold level? I understand it would be useful for those with FPSC but what about those who don't and come straight to Reloaded? What use would be 10 model packs they can't use?



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rolfy
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Posted: 19th Oct 2013 02:07 Edited at: 19th Oct 2013 02:10
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Quote: "Surely the model packs should work else why would they give 10 FPSC classic model packs away if pledging at Gold level?"

A question I already asked in another thread which can only be answered by TGC.

People need to get past the excitement and ask the right questions to make appropriate decisions
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Clonkex
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Posted: 19th Oct 2013 02:29
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I haven't read this thread entirely because I haven't time right now, but to quell any fears a little, let me reassure you that it would be very easy to write a simple converter to convert FPI scripts to LUA. Artists could continue to write in FPI if they so desired and it would be converted to LUA. Also, they would not be required to go through and convert every script by hand as they could be automatically converted.

In fact, I'm considering taking on the writing of the converter and an FPI IDE that could potentially be integrated into Reloaded in the future. Refer to my comment on Lee's blog:

http://fpscreloaded.blogspot.com/2013/10/thursday-thunder.html?showComment=1382138115722#c8044244123432204994

Also, for more comparisons between the two languages, refer to my forum thread:

http://forum.thegamecreators.com/?m=forum_view&t=208278&b=50&p=0


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rolfy
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Posted: 19th Oct 2013 03:09 Edited at: 19th Oct 2013 03:48
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Quote: "I haven't read this thread entirely because I haven't time right now, but to quell any fears a little"
If you had read it all you would know that changing the scripting language is not all of it, you would also know that the point of this thread is to throw a different light on what is going to happen to previous and future media packs. Maybe you can create a converter which will flawlessly create LUA from FPI but what about the shader system? Can you make a converter to create and import all texture maps required for any specific purpose and also references what will likely be a completely new folder structure? Not at this point in time you wont....it was always expected that even current FPI commands would be changing for Reloaded.
It's not all about scripting and you should take on board other folks opinions, it's in all our interests to insure that we get the best out of this.
Although I mention this change to LUA, it was just the tip of the iceberg,I have nothing against changing the scripting language and in fact if it's proven to be of worth then I am all for it, I just have a different perspective on losing out on media already available out there.
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Tobias_Ripper
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Posted: 19th Oct 2013 04:45
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Posting on the Initial Post here:

FPS Creator is favored by many starter devs due to an ALL GUI environment and included assets, models scripts and essentials. That being said, using GUI features alone will give you mediocre results limited to what drag and drop and PRE-made and pre-coded coded assets offer to the developer. NOW - The beauty and uniqueness of each well planned game project comes from CUSTOM MEDIA. New Music, Models, Animations, Assets, New features that NEED to be programmed since that they are MORE than the essentials of what has been included with the Software.

This also includes the FPI language, which I find although easy to earn, is quite disorienting and limiting in its structure. I would honestly much rather code in a standard coding hierarchy such as Java, GML or even C.

NOW - Artists Don't Want to Code and Coders Don't want to Model ordeal

Nice and simple. FPS Creator has given opportunities to artists to make games with minimal coding experience DUE to the fact that TGC provided pre-made scripts that take care of the basic gaming events, tasks and needs. Even with FPI, if you want more options and features, you'll have to learn fpi and code it yourself.

SO, this being said, I say Let TGC implement LUA as the base coding language which will finally make FPSC seem more or less in relative stance next to the other widely proffered coding languages BUT have a folder of pre-made scripts for the routine gaming tasks so that non-coders who don't want to spend time learning a coding language, would have basic assets provided.

So to conclude - provided the lazy ones with essentials and if they want more, learn the code. This will maintain user friendliness AND won't sacrifice the engines flexibility.

I don't really see why there would be a reason to limit the coding language, in fact this would be a good opportunity for change, expanding of coding applications and abilities.
God, for all I care, I'd suggest to make FPSC Reloaded code its Scripts in DARK BASIC. JUST BECAUSE it has the all familiar coding structure as other languages.

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Wolf
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Posted: 19th Oct 2013 04:50
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I'm rather tired as I write this post so forgive me if my reasoning and english is not up to my usual standart around here:

Quote: "Otherwise you are now looking at using media (particularly characters) which you will have to script yourself, putting Reloaded in the same corner as UDK or Unity for example."


I did concider this at first and talked to doomster about this, however, he and clonkex (who are far more experienced with these things as I am) told me rather confident that it should be possible to convert these. Which I interpretated as an easy way to set up my old characters. However, I do admit that I may be wrong about this.

Quote: "Considering the amount of users I have seen professing their need for a 'more advanced and less buggy engine' who hopped over to UDK only to find they couldn't actually create any games without a 'team',"


Guilty, your honor!

Quote: " I will just hop over to Unity Store and sell it there where they don't have such high faluting ideas of what 'quality' is."


What? You are one of the best around here. And why don't you sell it there too?

Quote: "an engine which is basically in competition with other engines. Which are free for those who simply play around and a license to pay for the more 'serious' commercial developer."


I never expected TGC to actually try and compete with these engines and I dont think it happens now. It would be a very ill advised approach anyway.
I have the confidence that ease of use is the focal point of TGC's development. Its their main selling point for FPSC.

To me, it seems more like they are excited about what they do and I dont see any red flags just yet...but then again, I'm an eternal optimist.

Of course, I noticed some users make comments in this direction but that's to be expected.

Quote: "
If TGC intend to make FPSCR as complex to use as UDK whilst dropping all support and future media packs for Classic then they may just shoot themselves in the foot and lose out with both Classic and Reloaded.
You need to consider the fact that all the media packs you have purchased for FPSC will not work in Reloaded and that some of us who create media feel put off by the attitude towards us when we are expected to 'make it so' without recompense and our media is deemed 'unfit' for Reloaded because it doesn't 'come up to standards'."


Is this related to implementing the LUA scripting? Because this sounds like there is more going on I might have missed?

Quote: "You need to consider the fact that all the media packs you have purchased for FPSC will not work in Reloaded"


How so?
Why do you believe the folder structure will completely change? Is this necessary if the implement LUA? If so, why?

Quote: "what about the shader system?"


From what I can tell reloaded uses Normal and specular maps as they where in FPSCClassic. Thats what it looks like to me.

In conclusion, I sense that you feel like Reloaded is taking a few wrong steps but I dont exactly see what you base this on. Could you link me to some statments so I can see how and why you fear that our media is no longer working. This would interest me greatly as I spent quite a few evenings preproducing models for my game.

Could you also reference the source of your fear of assets not having sufficient quality to be sold for reloaded? You are clearly superior compared to me in this aspect and since I have 2 and a half modelpacks out for sale I'd feel a bit like a wally if TGC somehow decides that its not up to the new standarts to receive a reloaded update. Thats hard to imagine and unlike them.

Quote: "People need to get past the excitement and ask the right questions to make appropriate decisions"


Lets stay in the excitement and ask the right questions

...and now this wolf takes a nap in his den




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uman
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Posted: 19th Oct 2013 14:43 Edited at: 19th Oct 2013 14:45
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Models and media.

I am no expert and am not sure about things like Characters and other dynamic entities that may have specific needs relating to that regarding Reloaded compatibility.

I don't see however why most other existing world building entity objects and media should not import to Reloaded together with any textures. That should be fine. Many things will or should easily be usable even if they need script support by copying existing default media scripts and using them for you own.

Shader support is something I cant comment on but that does not bother me personally as I would not especially wish to see Shaders on everything - global if you like as I prefer flexibility and may not want to use them anyway. I am not one for over use of Shaders, bloom and so on myself but careful and subtle use.

When you get the Beta you may have a little better idea yourself but perhaps not as I am not sure right now where that's going or what it will now contain as some things look like being possibly delayed and now not included. Who knows.

If you get Physics and AI working in the Beta then that may help you though I am not sure that will be the case. I am in the dark here too.

Sorry I am not much help but I am sure all is not lost as the saying goes. All of the things will have to be looked at sorted and accommodated or not sooner or later.

Waiting, Waiting and a lot more Waiting, eh!



"You don't see 'im, till 'im come callin"
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KeithC
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Posted: 19th Oct 2013 19:05
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One thing I'd like to touch on, concerning media content creation for Reloaded.

As has been stated by Rick himself; media that is sold in the store, HAS to be of the "highest quality". Meaning not only diffuse maps; but also spec, normal, etc. Not all current TGC media for sale has these extra effect maps. That would either have to be created, and added; or existing packs would "clash" with other media in your levels/games. When you look at the sheer size of the TGC media library; it is not a task for the weak-kneed. Not all artists are still around to bring their media up to task; nor are all (I suspect) willing to do so for free (refer to the thread on paying more for added benefit to your original purchased packs).

To add to this; it has been a given that most packs aspire to that magical "$20" mark. To do that; you either have to have a vast collection of media in the pack, a decent number of characters with numerous animations, or a new shader system (accompanying a large amount of media). If you expect artists (who can) to do this additional work to bring it up to the Reloaded "standard"; you should also expect either less media for your 20 bucks, or an increase in price. When these same artists can sell in the Unity Store (for example), for much more than they can here...and get 70 percent of the take; what's enticing them to sell here for less?

These are things that need addressing; sooner rather than later. Otherwise the Reloaded media library will be far smaller than I imagine it's intended to be. As Rolfy stated; without the media makers, ReLoaded will fizzle. I'm just being honest here.

-Keith

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uman
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Posted: 19th Oct 2013 19:53 Edited at: 19th Oct 2013 19:56
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Yes already considered and accepted.

More difficult for the easy to use Reloaded product, user to create a game who will be able to create a world and terrain quickly but not be able to easily create other content to go in it themselves unless they are presumably going to learn to become a master model/media maker.

or rely to TGC to supply a vast array of default media to cover a multitude of game types.

or buy models and media made by the experts as paid for content additionally which to be fair to them should and would probably have to cost a buyer a great deal more or the the model makers would have to take a much bigger cut which they will not and probably rightly so not be prepared to do. Being fair and reasonable they should receive what can be described as decent and worthwhile financial returns for their hard work and labours if anyone expects them to provide high quality content.

Thus whichever way you look at it - it is not helpful to the product or end users or the media makers from that cost perspective and users will at least for a very long time may well be short of content with which to build their games which are likely to be very sparsely populated.

There looks like there will certainly be not many games made with Reloaded containing a large number of complex, quality and advanced media or models and you may have to make do with the few default "Prepared" models distributed with the product for quite some time.

About the only benefit of that I can see is your empty levels may be at least a bit faster and that will certainly be needed.

Overall it says that reloaded will be easy to use with what you get out of the box but cost everyone a lot more. Get a new computer and or wait to buy all new media to start.

Good for TGC perhaps in their thninking theory in the long or short term as media packs and other things that may have to be paid by users for as extras or other Reloaded add ons generate a lot of money for TGC I guess, however Reloaded seems to be shaping up to forget somewhat about FPSC past market user group and very small indies with low budgets in favour of this AAA aspiring title group whoever they are.

I can understand the commercial issues here for all concerned and its clearly difficult to find a balance if indeed one is to be considered at all.

Reloaded is clearly going to be a more expensive option for indie developers than past FPSC so how that will pan out is anyones guess.

Anyway first off you have to have a Reloaded product that can make use of any models and media so when the Beta comes along then everyone can get some idea of what if any media content will actually be useful in terms of using it.

Following on from that well looks like a long way off from any answer to how it will all affect TGC, the indie users and the success of them all.

I am sure there will always be some who will be able to afford to pay more all round and Reloaded may attract them at the expense of those who can not afford to use it so the user base may change in its colour as it were and some will be left behind while others move in.

Just hope that its the right thing that's done depending upon ones opinion of course.

At the end of the day Reloaded is a commercial operation an I have no further comment on that. Don't get me going on that.



"You don't see 'im, till 'im come callin"
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pdidy
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Posted: 19th Oct 2013 19:55 Edited at: 19th Oct 2013 20:04
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@rolfy
I have to agree that reloaded should not become a monopoly for a selected few, but should be available as choice to each and everyone who has purchased or intend to purchase the product,
it is supposed to be an engine that appeals to the non scripter
and should remain that way with option to script if you can or need to. we don't need another udk, or in fact another x10,
so lets hope tgc see sense before pushing the customers they need away from the product before it has even been released, fpsc has always been unique in its ease of use, and if they push away from that factor it will probably fail miserably.

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uman
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Posted: 19th Oct 2013 19:57
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Clearly there is a very real danger of that.

"You don't see 'im, till 'im come callin"
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Yurif74
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Posted: 19th Oct 2013 20:56 Edited at: 19th Oct 2013 20:59
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rolfy hit the point,
first, segments media that are totally useless now that segment system is removed from FPSCR, yes, probably that media could be used with the new ROOM-BLOB system, a system placed in a drawer taking dust, leaved apart for the most important LUA script.
now 10 old fpsc packs gived "for free" to pledgers, that are totally useless! yes someday, some one COULD make a converter..
personally i think that ROOM-BLOBS, WATER, CAVES, DOORS, SWITCHES & ELEVATORS are a piece of heart of FPSCR, not only a long-term addon..

FPSCR actually can't be compared to UDK or CRYENGINE because all of them can make anytype of games, with terrain, buildings, caves, bunkers, switches, doors, water, atmospheric effects etc..

if i have to learn a complex to use engine like UDK then i'll start to use UDK. i wish to remember to all of you a sentence from the home page of the new site:

Quote: "We’re on a mission to create the best and easiest to use game creator and would like to invite you to join us on this journey."


notice the keyword i've bolded..
so if the difficuly of FPSCR increase as the days pass then that phrase is a lie and i'm going to be miffed and disappointed too!

at this point i think it is time that the TGC team takes the field and explain exactly what's happening here, just to calm tempers

FPSC Reloaded TGC Backer
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Nomad Soul
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Posted: 19th Oct 2013 21:40 Edited at: 19th Oct 2013 21:42
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what EXACTLY are you saying is going to be more difficult in Reloaded than FPSC classic?

All I'm hearing is FPI scripts and model packs won't be backwards compatible which is a completely seperate issue from how difficult Reloaded will be to use.

There is no evidence to suggest it will be any more difficult to import objects, texture them and apply a shader than it was before.

Using LUA instead of FPI is not any more difficult, its just slightly different and there a lot of benefits in doing that.

Nobody can say at this point if room blobs will be more difficult to implement than segments. If you have actually read the advantages of room blobs you will know why they are better.

A lot of people are complaining without knowing what they are talking about or making assumptions. If you want to stay with the old segment system and FPI scripts then carry on using FPSC classic.

There is nothing more difficult in Reloaded than in FPSC classic. Some things are being updated or changed for the better and yes there might be a slightly different workflow to get media working.

Any comparisons between Reloaded and UDK are just plain ridiculous and saying that adding LUA makes Reloaded as difficult to use as UDK is really quite ignorant.

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uman
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Posted: 19th Oct 2013 21:43
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Everyone is cool. People are just making their opinions known.

To be fair TGC and users too want a better engine and I guess that would include models and media.

If that means we have to pay more then that's the way it may have to be. We can't have it all ways I guess.

Its a bit of being caught in between a Rock and a Hard place again and all will have to be settled and sorted out amicably and for the best solutions that's able to be achieved as Reloaded has to and will move forward or won't get done.

Some patience is needed to work through these things as some of them crop up as Reloaded is being developed and are or were not foreseen perhaps by anyone.

Models/media and any scripting language for instance.

For example why is it that 10 months on only now changing scripting language has come into the planning?

Well perhaps its because now we are at this stage we (TGC) are looking to seek ways to improve performance which in reality perhaps may not be quite as good as might have been expected by some at least. Thus one has to face up to and confront issues that do appear and find ways to overcome them. That's all part of the process not in theory but in the practical development of the engine.

I don't think that it means that anyone is necessarily misleading anyone or is trying to be unkind to anyone but it may be a response to reality in the light of circumstance.

Making Reloaded is a difficult task and one that needs a lot of support from many people. I am sure the easy to use thing is still a priority for everyone as no one I would think wants to make their life any harder than it need be.

I am not aware of the exact situation regarding the existing model packs other than I can say that as previously said .x models and their textures should import and be able to be placed without issue OK into Reloaded if you want to use them. That said any that require scripts and shaders and so on to be applied to them are a different matter as I cannot confirm that, partly because well currently Reloaded does not have full support for those things and if the script language changes then of course they wont have that support until its included.

I am sure these things will have to be sorted as said as if not then Reloaded cannot move forward.

Any concerns and issues will have to be addressed and solutions put in place to accommodate them one way or another.



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Tobias_Ripper
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Posted: 19th Oct 2013 23:06
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I would say no matter how complicated the engine is as long as there's a manual, you can learn it.

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cobracon2
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Posted: 20th Oct 2013 00:05
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Quote: "I would say no matter how complicated the engine is as long as there's a manual, you can learn it."


Then why say it's an easy to use piece of software. If I wanted to have to read a lot of stuff I'd use torque or unity. Torque is free now.

The whole reason this engine is popular is because its easy to pick up for almost anyone. Making it harder to use, cuts out some of your established consumers. Not to mention the price hike and need for better models.
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s4real
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Posted: 20th Oct 2013 00:45
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Rolfy has some good points.

I think people need to understand this is still a low budget game engine and for the price you getting a lot.

If FPSC reloaded is going down the more pro road then expect to start paying pro prices for the media and the engine itself.


I think it should have lua and fpi in the engine so old media can be used as well as the lua scripts.


But I feel TGC needs to be careful as they using an outdated dx9 that came out in 2002 and with xp being dropped in 2014 by microsoft TGC do have to think about moving on to dx11 at some point.


Reloaded is looking good and will see what the results are when the beta is released.

best s4real

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rolfy
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Posted: 20th Oct 2013 01:35 Edited at: 20th Oct 2013 02:24
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Quote: "To add to this; it has been a given that most packs aspire to that magical "$20" mark. To do that; you either have to have a vast collection of media in the pack, a decent number of characters with numerous animations, or a new shader system (accompanying a large amount of media). If you expect artists (who can) to do this additional work to bring it up to the Reloaded "standard"; you should also expect either less media for your 20 bucks, or an increase in price. When these same artists can sell in the Unity Store (for example), for much more than they can here...and get 70 percent of the take; what's enticing them to sell here for less?"

KeithC seems to be the one who has a handle on my concerns raised and uman keeps it neutral as it should be.
Many here have been touting Reloaded as comparable to Cryengine and saying it's now a AAA engine which as far as I am concerned means y'all can expect to start paying the same for media for your AAA games.
Before anyone goes off at me I have always kept my prices at rock bottom for the users of FPSC and if y'all knew the time I put into simply coming up with ways to make something that little bit different, which may be faked AAA standard, but hey it's FPSC. Believe me its harder to make something look like its 'NOT made with FPSC' than it is to make something that the engine itself does in true AAA engines. This is something I would like to continue doing, but a change in attitude has to be forthcoming.

I have encountered myself the attitude of TGC where they expect to see more bang for the buck when choosing what to put into official model packs and that's all okay for users and TGC, I am just tired of seeing the artist come out the loser. Personally I go for quality over quantity and ironically that's what TGC are expecting for Reloaded. But if this trend is to continue where the artist has even more work to do and still has no way of setting their own price on their own work then I can see you, as the users having to get the raw artwork into your games without it being done for you.

Thing is, most assets you purchase in the Unity store for example are no better quality than a lot of the media you see from Wolf,D13 or Cosmic Prophet and are actually not game ready for any specific engine such as is FPSC, with out of the box scripts and ready to drop and run in the game level.

It's not that I don't want to see a more capable FPSC but I do feel there is a serious lack of respect for others hard work around here when it comes to assets, not only artists ut those who work hard to make FPSC better than it was, which seems all but forgotten now. This has been getting more and more prevalent as time has gone by, my own business is no less valid than anyone else's and I got to eat and pay bills just like you do.

It's not My opinion that media will be too complex and of such superior quality it will require an artist with the talent of Leonardo to create it....this seems to be the attitude of TGC.....but if you are happy to go down the road of functionality at the cost of ease of use then you should be happy to take the time to consider your media in the same way and get it in there yourself. This may suit those of you who can...but what about the majority?

I say majority here because that's how it is and I don't believe in shoving my own desires down others throats when they don't agree with what I expect or want from Reloaded...I pledged too ya know and that means I am entitled to my say as are all the others who pledged.

As for the LUA argument which is just a small part of this.
I want to see Reloaded used by beginners and Pro's alike. As far as I am concerned there is no room for ONLY the elite in this case and I want it to be where everyone comes out a winner. This is achieved through majority vote, if you want it then convince others in a rational way that's in the best interests for ALL not just your own.

To TGC, if you actually believe that previous model packs are not good enough quality for Reloaded (yes, I do know you think this), you are wrong, it makes good business sense to have a huge asset library available for sale to new users when Reloaded comes along and you should be looking at ways of making it happen.
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science boy
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Posted: 20th Oct 2013 02:15
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@ rolfy hallelujah. Someone talking sense. Improve and optimise fpi this will make all old stuff work and people used to the language and if improve can be not a bottle neck. Add more scripts too. I don't see why adding an entire new language when optimisation is all that is needed. Surely keep the wisdom of fpi the info and script archive will be a better option without gutting the entire everything.

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raymondlee306
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Posted: 20th Oct 2013 04:50
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Just throwing something out there...

Would it be helpful in making informed decisions if we knew what kind of formats Reloaded can take? Model and texture wise (Directx, FBX, obj)? Will more poly's be available for use (5000 characters or 20000 characters), what types of shaders and associated textures go with them, etc.

Knowing that info would help determine how much work is actually needed to convert a model from FPSC quality to FPSCR quality. Has Lee tried importing a MP53 character and see what it actually looks like?

Rolfy mentioned emails going to certain artists. If that info is in there than they may already be on top of it. If it's a matter of opening them and adding LOD's or smoothing groups it might not be so bad and most people could handle that themselves.
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Clonkex
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Posted: 20th Oct 2013 06:19
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@science boy:

Well, that depends. FPI is a limited language, not just slow. It's extremely unconventional and not very readable.


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science boy
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Posted: 20th Oct 2013 10:44
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@ clonkex. You are telling a whole forum if to change to lua script you will make a working fpi to lua translater. If you can assure all this and won't give up on it and will support it and give a promise then I will stand back and let others debate. Don't leave us down. For I know the blue Mountains and will come over and find you and make you write the programme and upload it p.s x

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uman
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Posted: 20th Oct 2013 16:38
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Yes I try to be neutral.

I could write a book (or two) but will refrain and try and keep it short.

Absolutely everything Reloaded is governed by the maths. 2 + 2 = 4 and you cant change that.

The engine itself depends upon the maths and so too all other considerations.

Everybody wants - well everything.

You have a cake to make and then sell it.

You cant have your cake and eat it and beat the maths but you can attempt to influence the end result :

You can have many small pieces and distribute it evenly to many (more users)

You can divide it up into large pieces and distribute evenly to few (less users)

Or you can divide it up into unequal pieces and distribute it unevenly to a number depending how the cake is cut (variable number of users).

Now if you are selling your cake (TGC, Model Makers, Anyone else) the results may well be the same in each instance as the total price received for your goods may be the same so how the cake is divided may not matter.

However to the consumer (Reloaded users) the end result may be entirely different and the way the cake is divided may matter a great deal.

Some users may benefit at the expensive of others who may well lose out depending on how much they can afford to pay and how the cake is divided up.

The Result being fewer or more consumers (users).

However as always its not quite as simple as that. You have to get the all important recipe : ingredients as well as the cost right.

The cost and ingredients you use in the cake may mean that the (product) or cake no matter how so divided may not be purchased if the consumer does not like it because its too expensive or it does not taste good to the purchaser (meet with their expectations). Either way they may not like the recipe and the cake may remain on the shelf.

Ensuring the maths add up is usually a good idea.



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BlackFox
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Posted: 20th Oct 2013 17:17
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Since we have done away with the penny here, I'll offer a Canadian nickel...

The key point here little to do with the FPI vs LUA debate, nor is it whether Classic is better than Reloaded. It is about the artist's perspective- where do they fit in to the grand scheme of things. There are many artists that have created model packs for sale and free packs for years with little to no knowledge of scripting. While the development of Reloaded has already been underway, the key questions raised are not getting answered. What are the final requirements for creating media? Will artists need to switch their process to include learning how to code (script)? How much time will they need to spend on creating media for Reloaded versus creating media for Classic? I cannot fathom any artist spending double or triple the time on media for Reloaded only to make a few pennies. They have bills to pay and families to support. I know how much time is spent making media- even though I do the coding/scripting for our developments, my wife makes media. I also appreciate people like Cosmic, Willow, Rosstradamus, Disturbing13, and Rolfy (to name a few) since I understand completely the process and time spent on making media and ensuring it works with little effort for us developers.

The fact is, these questions have been asked and gone without response. It seems that certain details are sprung at the last minute, then enter the confusion and mass debates on what is best or not. The FPI vs LUA is a prime example. I for one do not buy into the notion that FPI is limited, slow, or archaic. I can say that because we not only work with it but made very good money on finished developments. It is a scripting language- plain and simple. The problem is how the classic engine was processing the scripts. Remove the bottlenecks and the engine actually runs very fast. I'm not saying that adding new features to the existing source was bad, but the bottlenecks were missed, which lead to problems for many users.

There are many involved with the usage of the engine- hobbyists, developers, and artists. Everyone has a valid opinion based on their usage- in other words, Rolfy's opinion is no less valid as an artist compared to mine as a developer/programmer compared to Uman as a user. It gets confusing when one thing is mentioned, then another thing is mentioned that contradicts the first; yet when clarification is asked, it goes ignored. One can assume that the reason is either we are not asking the right question or we just are not part of the elite group.

We want a win-win for everyone- users, developers, and artists. Without the artists being part of the process and growth, then the engine is useless. That means us developers taking longer times to complete our developments. We for one support the artists and agree with every statement Rolfy has made. Without them, we would get nowhere. They are an integral part of our work, a main cog in a production machine. If they are going to be pushed aside because their media is not good enough quality, then everyone will either spend more money on media or have to learn to do things themselves for a change.


There's no problem that can't be solved without applying a little scripting.
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uman
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Posted: 20th Oct 2013 20:12
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Hi Black Fox,

Confusion Yes a lot of that. I cant help much on the model makers thing as I am not very experienced in what your work involves exactly or what it might need for Reloaded. Neither am I one of the elite group or privy to anymore information than you particularly.

All In know is that Models. i.e. basic ones such as static or even dynamic .x models will import and place into Reloaded together with a single base texture fine. I guess you obviously need much more info than that but I do not know any more.

I don't know anything of the bump maps, shaders or animation or scripts and so on involved and with no AI in Reloaded yet then not much help on that front is there.

I am for Media makers, game makers and anyone else getting a fair whack/wedge for their hard work whatever it is they need to sustain their work which I am not aware of. Presumably as with many others its not nearly enough. Why do you think I don't do anything of that nature. So I am a supporter of the media makers.

Prices of models well if I cant afford them I go without or make them myself or not make a game at all end of story.

I don't know who is not giving you information or who has any to give you except TGC so again cant help.

I can only suggest at this moment in time that unless you get any further clarification then the Beta when it comes shortly with any luck if not delayed may be able to provide some insight.

The script thing is done to death now. It's not rocket science and I am sure someone will be able to work it out and the media thing for the best or not as with all of these things as the case may be.

I should think everyone does not know their backside from their elbow at the moment.

Personally I see Reloaded largely and potentially ending up on the shelf again with me anyway at this moment in time so am just trying to help others.



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rolfy
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Posted: 20th Oct 2013 21:44 Edited at: 20th Oct 2013 22:46
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I have never been afraid to dig into scripting, those of you who know the work I have done in the past will know this.

From since I joined I was influenced by the likes of Butterfingers, a coder who learned to model and Mark Blosser (bond1) a modeler who learned to code to realize their ambitions, Mark is a real stand up guy who has never ignored me when I pester him with something I need. Many others whatever their field have been an inspiration to me. It's what it's all about when your part of a community which sees a regular user base.

Whenever a new feature has been introduced to the engine I have jumped in and put my own slant on it.

Interactive system using limb detection. Dynamic shadows using bond1's atlas walk shader. Progressive damage on characters, and being inspired yet again by bond1...random animation calls for characters to give a less linear experience for players. I have created terrain with full enemy collision and tried to create environments which were usable in a software not designed for outdoor levels. None of this is possible without digging in on both the modeling and scripting side of things so I am in no way intimated by even a new language...I would just dig in and learn it as usual.

However I don't expect other artists to do so nor do I see any reason to force it on them without first accepting their opinion on it, it is kind of disappointing that no other artists seem to be jumping in here and presenting their own views on it. Possibly they don't want to upset the apple cart.

All the same I am frustrated by the lack or interest from both TGC and users in this side of things, I have no idea of how my pipeline for media creation may change and it doesn't appear that anyone is asking me how I would like to see this going to work.

Many around here contribute in their own way to this forum and Classic FPSC.
You know why?
Because like many of us they loved this software and they loved TGC for providing us with it.

When you are asked for your opinion on whatever new features should be added you also need to consider the fact for some us there are other priorities, basic ones, like.....how easy or more difficult is going to be to get my custom media into Reloaded?
Some of this custom media may end up the form of official model packs, which may be created by some around here or maybe TGC think this new technology will attract a more professional kind of media artist, good luck with that one when you sell packs for pennies and have to use a hammer to get it into the engine.
At the end of the day I spent just as many years learning my skills as anyone around here and they are just as relevant as any programmers, so is my business, albeit this is only a small part of my income.

In a nutshell my disgruntlement is at TGC for not involving artists in this project, for the simple reason that it helps if voices are in numbers that can be heard and not so esily ignored, if the pipeline for import of media is not in place at the start it's going to be real difficult to get it in there later.
What about the promise that it would be easier to get your custom media into Reloaded? What about geometry that isn't 'boxy' as old FPSC preferred? I want to be able to mix more complex terrain with the terrain editor which to be honest is incredibly limited at present and I am as underwhelmed by this as some seem to be excited. I want proper collision and physics with random geometry and editable materials not just textures. These are not something I should have to request, they are basic functions of any decent game engine out there.

What about previous model packs? Don't promise that they will work then turn around and say..."well, we meant static entities, never said anything about characters". Why discontinue sales of official packs when it's obviously not a major problem to keep producing them AND work on reloaded, unless the intention is to drop FPSC and try to force people onto the new software. I don't buy it that older media isn't good enough quality for Reloaded, this may be the case for your own promotional requirements but you just left folks like me hanging out to dry. Besides when these beta's start to come out...guess what? Those users who have old packs will be trying to get them in there and the place will be awash with it anyhow.

I am finished ranting now, but will end by saying, if you leave out a major part of your product development, which is assets (you only have to look at the lack of media you have right now for Reloaded to see what I mean)and you don't sort out a proper more professional pipeline for its import right now, you certainly wont attract the more 'professional' media creator to jump on board.
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Wolf
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Posted: 20th Oct 2013 23:14
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A lot of very valid points have been brought up! I'd say we should wait for a responce from Lee or Rick themselves on this

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BlackFox
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Posted: 20th Oct 2013 23:34 Edited at: 20th Oct 2013 23:39
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Quote: "A lot of very valid points have been brought up! I'd say we should wait for a responce from Lee or Rick themselves on this"


I am a supporter of TGC with the classic engine... yet one of the valid points brought up was the lack of responses when said questions have been asked... You have a seasoned, talented artist asking questions/concerns going unaddressed and yet I've seen new users ask about moving vehicles and such to get a response. I will not take time to link to threads where questions like this have been asked and neither of the two you mention even took time to answer. Oh- I stand corrected. There was mention of an indie vs standard comment by a moderator one time. Since that was news to us, I asked straight out where the heck that was pulled from. Rick did actually reply saying it was on Facebook. LOL and yet no comments or answers to the questions/concerns that have been brought up, both now or since Reloaded first started it's development venture. If time could be taken to actually help answer some questions instead of everyone making guesses/assumptions/hypothetical solutions, then perhaps more would decide to support or be willing to do something to help the community.


There's no problem that can't be solved without applying a little scripting.
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Clonkex
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Posted: 21st Oct 2013 01:54
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Quote: "For I know the blue Mountains and will come over and find you and make you write the programme and upload it"


lol Well you'd be a long time looking for me; I'm not in the Blue Mountains I'm in the Northern Tablelands

I won't promise 100% that I'll make the converter, but there's a good 99% chance that I will

Quote: "While the development of Reloaded has already been underway, the key questions raised are not getting answered. What are the final requirements for creating media? Will artists need to switch their process to include learning how to code (script)? How much time will they need to spend on creating media for Reloaded versus creating media for Classic?"


+1

Quote: "it is kind of disappointing that no other artists seem to be jumping in here and presenting their own views on it"


I am an artist, but I'm also a programmer, so I hardly count


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Tobias_Ripper
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Posted: 21st Oct 2013 02:57 Edited at: 21st Oct 2013 03:01
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Do you:

Want to make quality games? OR Make quick, easy, mediocre games.

Why intentionally settle with inferior quality?

Solution - provide the basis for those who don't want to learn to code and/or are not motivated enough to make a good game.

for the "wanting to make an easily learn-able software"
And suffer the quality of the games WHICH will represent the engine and company. Why settle for silver when the gold is within reach?

Quote: ""While the development of Reloaded has already been underway, the key questions raised are not getting answered. What are the final requirements for creating media? Will artists need to switch their process to include learning how to code (script)? How much time will they need to spend on creating media for Reloaded versus creating media for Classic?""


FPSC essentially makes it possible for a single man crew to make games. It's inevitable that mote manpower will be required to make a good solid game.

But if one should have a crew why is it so necessary (from what I hear) to abandon FPSC and go with Unity/ Torque, Cry, GDK and so on? Why?

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rolfy
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Posted: 21st Oct 2013 03:33 Edited at: 21st Oct 2013 04:16
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Quote: "Want to make quality games? OR Make quick, easy, mediocre games."

Quote: "Why intentionally settle with inferior quality?"


Sigh!
I dunno maybe you simply fell into the wrong thread.
I see no evidence of this superior quality you speak of. how about following statement with example? Which part of development so far in Reloaded are you specifically referring to? The integration of LUA?, how exactly will that make it a 'superior' engine, when I am talking about creation of assets? In my own view if it combines ease of use with performance and really does attract a better standard of artwork, then I am all for it.
Besides in one of the other threads dedicated to this subject the consensus seems to be in favour of trying to find a way to use both, so why are you coming in here with this?
If it were all as simple as you present it I would see the point, if you think I want ease of use to continue at the cost of quality then you have no idea of what I am talking about. Either that or you haven't actually read this thread.
The quality of games will continue in reloaded as it always has with Classic and is all down to users abilities, telling someone like me that a better scripting system would make my games better without consideration for assets is pointless, so lets not forget here that were talking specifically about media production past,present and future.
Quality games and ease of use aren't incompatible you know, I have seen many great games created with FPSC Classic by users around here but I can assure you they would not have happened without the media both paid and free by artists who have made stuff for you to throw into it in the first place.
If you reckon you can create all the quality media you require for your 'superior' quality engine then have at it.
I look forward to all the fantastic games with bumpy terrain and a few blobs in 'em, still they might just run real smooth and have some awesome scripting.

Personally I am concerned about the issue of a proper pipeline for media in Reloaded which needs to be in place at the gate not further down the line, maybe that doesn't concern you, if so then thats fine by me, but I moved on from the LUA argument a long way back, it was only an opening shot really and not the main gist

I have a question....why do you use FPSC instead of Unity/UDK if all your concerned with is a superior engine? When in your own words"no matter how complicated the engine is as long as there's a manual, you can learn it"

Something tells me it's because of 'ease of use' and the crap load of free media available which you can simply drop into your game designs.

Quote: "
But if one should have a crew why is it so necessary (from what I hear) to abandon FPSC and go with Unity/ Torque, Cry, GDK and so on? Why?"
Again I feel you mistake what's said, you will find that moving onto UDK requires a team, no one has ever said it's necessary that a team using FPSC is required to move onto anything else.
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Tobias_Ripper
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Posted: 21st Oct 2013 04:23 Edited at: 21st Oct 2013 04:53
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Points below

Isenstadt Studio: http://isenstadtstudio.com/
Composers Page: Milesthatch.com
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rolfy
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Posted: 21st Oct 2013 04:43 Edited at: 21st Oct 2013 04:54
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Quote: "'ease of use' translates to NO new Models, NO new scripts, NO new Content, users who use just "ease of use" won't make quality."
Well I am sorry if you have been disappointed with progress in these areas in Classic.
Actually it's been my experience that the opposite is true, many of the users who contributed their skills around here, whether scripting or media actually learned how to do things with 'an easy to use' engine. If things get too complex then it limits the user base and you will find things more likely to go the way you describe. I do agree it should be usable by pro's but in the long run FPSC is about easier not 'more difficult' for the entry level user.

I understand what your saying with the original post but as I am trying to say changing scripting language was just the tip of a very large iceberg when it means future media is going to be harder for artists to get into the engine or that packs users bought are now useless for Reloaded.
Quote: "Because I have spent far too much time and money into studying this engine to simply brush it off and start from scratch."
If some of that money was spent on model packs then you ought be thinking about whether or not your investment may be going down the drain.
Of course it may not be bad as I think but without straight answers from TGC then I have nothing to go on but what I see with my own eyes.



Quote: "As long as the wishful considerations for the "ease of use" preferred users does not impact the quality that the engine can produce for the Dedicated, hard working developers then I am ok. Otherwise why set the bar so low?"
Who said the bar was being set low, the fact is I truly want to raise it, however I cant do that without TGC themselves raising the bar when it comes to asset creation and again "ease of use" getting it into your level, hope this explains it a bit better for you.
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Tobias_Ripper
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Posted: 21st Oct 2013 04:53 Edited at: 21st Oct 2013 05:04
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Quote: "Actually it's been my experience that the opposite is true, many of the users who contributed their skills around here, whether scripting or media actually learned how to do things with 'an easy to use' engine. If things get too complex then it limits the user base and you will find things more likely to go the way you describe."


Users who learn the engine are NO LONGER "ease of use" users. They are full grown developers who Know how to learn. Which is my point, Leave the (EOU for "ease of use") EOU users with the basics and attend to the needs of those who will make future with the engine. I have seen NO ONE make success with FPSC without opening the manual or learning the code or making any new assets, new features that pre-made scripts provide with. It is virtually impossible to make a good game with just drag and drop.

Quote: "Who said the bar was being set low, the fact is I truly want to raise it"

Point taken.


Quote: "I cant do that without TGC themselves raising the bar when it comes to asset creation,"


ENGINE comes first, Assets Come later, You don't make the paint and THEN make a car for it. I elaborate on this below...


You should understand this, If you want to stay in business, you better keep up industry pace and learn the new features. Otherwise you will find yourself inferior to those who are willing to learn and offer the fresh, new ideas.

New features = good, New assets = good. Artist who don't want to accept change and stay outdated = bad.

What good will staying outdated do? None. Learn the software, not vice versa.

The better quality the engine can output, the better quality the assets can be made in.

And when I am saying Quality I mean Programming AND Media.

trying to sum it all up. Why bother even making the engine if you don't want to improve it (and that is what you are saying, you're practically saying "I don't want to have New features because I will have to learn them so lets just stay with the old features because I already know how to create assets using them even though that means that I will suffer quality"). The point is to make a good game NOT amount of assets it will provide. No good is the engine if id doesn't deliver.

... i'm talking like Yoda now....

Isenstadt Studio: http://isenstadtstudio.com/
Composers Page: Milesthatch.com
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rolfy
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Posted: 21st Oct 2013 05:10 Edited at: 21st Oct 2013 05:18
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Quote: "ENGINE comes first, Assets Come later, You don't make the paint and THEN make a car for it."
Nice but pointless analogy I can see you got a great handle on business in general particularly when it comes to creating this kind of software and the market it's aimed at.

Quote: "trying to sum it all up. Why bother even making the engine if you don't want to improve it (and that is what you are saying, you're practically saying "I don't want to have New features because I will have to learn them so lets just stay with the old features because I already know how to create assets using them even though that means that I will suffer quality")"
Its like talking to a brick wall. If you could actually qoute me saying that I will be super impressed

Quote: "You should understand this, If you want to stay in business, you better keep up industry pace and learn the new features. Otherwise you will find yourself inferior to those who are willing to learn and offer the fresh, new ideas.

New features = good, New assets = good. Artist who don't want to accept change and stay outdated = bad."
Point taken, I should just give up then and mosey along? I think you need a refresher course on the fact I have always kept up with industry when it comes to my field of expertise or maybe you think your talking to someone who doesn't have a clue. Either way your really beginning to irritate me so I'll just ignore you from here on.
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BlackFox
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Posted: 21st Oct 2013 05:19 Edited at: 21st Oct 2013 05:31
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Quote: "You should understand this, If you want to stay in business, you better keep up industry pace and learn the new features. Otherwise you will find yourself inferior to those who are willing to learn and offer the fresh, new ideas.
"


Quote: "Point taken, I should just give up then and mosey along?"


And here I was debating a few things. Should I give up using nails and a hammer in favor of a nail gun? Should I give up my hand sander in favor of a power sander? The "newer is better" analogy is not always true... We have seen quality work in FPSC with less than what is in it now, and that work still surpasses anything to date.

Quote: "New features = good, New assets = good. Artist who don't want to accept change and stay outdated = bad."


This is not exactly an accurate point regarding this topic. For example, although the LUA debate is just a small tip, let me use that. Bringing in LUA has good sides- I know this; FPI is also good. There are a few artists that make great media that know FPI, and even a couple of them can script but have not really taken time to learn it fully. So by your analogy, if they don't want to learn new features they become outdated. However, it was TGC that suddenly said no more classic packs being accepted, and with Reloaded due to come out of the gate not one artist knows what is expected/required so that they can determine if they are able/willing to change. The bar may be set high, but by what standards? The artist they currently use? Did a voice boom down and say "this must be the standard"? That is the point. The artists that have provided media so far are the best we've seen, and yet it does not measure up? I know of one that counts on being able to sell his/her media and yet cannot see how they can upgrade their media to fit an engine for a mere few pennies (which has also been discussed).

And for the record- We (my wife and I) would put our money on Rolfy, Rosstradamaus, Cosmic Prophet, Willow, Disturbing13 over any artist any day. They at least know their work and they have put many, many hours into media. If it were not for these people, TGC would have very little media available, let alone a jump point to establish their "standards". There are others that have done media, but these people have done a tonne for the community, let alone introducing cool new ideas.


There's no problem that can't be solved without applying a little scripting.
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rolfy
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Posted: 21st Oct 2013 05:23 Edited at: 21st Oct 2013 05:25
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All I can say is when certain folks around here actually contribute/produce something of worth other than big talk then maybe, just maybe, they will be allowed to patronise those that already do.
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Tobias_Ripper
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Posted: 21st Oct 2013 05:28 Edited at: 21st Oct 2013 05:35
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An artist is but a small fraction and the engine is the core that puts it all together. Don't go over you heads as your skills means squat if it can't be used at an improving - NOT same stationary state - and the engine is what makes puts your work to "work".

This whole thread is all about favoring artists who don't want to go and learn the new features. I find it pointless as no good will come out if this idea besides the amount of assets made.

You're stalling what could be a great engine simply because you don't want to learn.

And lastly, I am commuted enough to this engine to stay on the forum and work. I'd be long gone if all I was interested in was starting arguments. But you're right, putting suggestions is in fact like talking to a brick wall.

Isenstadt Studio: http://isenstadtstudio.com/
Composers Page: Milesthatch.com
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rolfy
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Posted: 21st Oct 2013 05:34 Edited at: 21st Oct 2013 05:37
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OK last attempt, sometimes I am a glutton for punishment.

READ THE BLOODY THREAD FOR CRYING OUT LOUD!

You haven't got a clue because:
a)You haven't done more than skip through it.
b)English is not your first language or
c)You skipped school too often and can't read.

Youare certainly not putting suggestions, you are merely trolling.
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BlackFox
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Posted: 21st Oct 2013 05:36 Edited at: 21st Oct 2013 05:38
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Quote: "An artist is but a small fraction and the engine is the core that puts it all together.
"


Without the artists, we would have very, very little to work with. Unless we have a lot of time to dedicate to each faction (model creation, textures, scripting, etc...) the artists help to alleviate the task. They are a vital cog in a machine as far as we are concerned. I'm certain they must be important to TGC since they (artists) sell their media on their site. I've seen more media being made and released compared to upgrades- the ratio favors the artists. They kept the community fed with new media for many years.

Quote: "You're stalling what could be a great engine simply because you don't want to learn."


Not once has this been said or mentioned. You have missed the point and the intent behind the topic.

Quote: "Youare certainly not putting suggestions, you are merely trolling. "


Am I?


There's no problem that can't be solved without applying a little scripting.
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